Camel’s Nose

Evil threads from a bad guide: Part I, the dacha thread

July 9, 2009 — Nijma

This post won’t make any sense except to readers of A Bad Guide, which has now gone dark. The last couple of threads really sucked me dry of all the energy I needed to cope with this week’s round of crises with family, work, internet, and housing. I meant to revisit the thread later to break it into little parts and examine the parts to see what could be learned from them, but now the blog has been taken offline. I am rescuing the threads from google cache while they are still available and putting them here, hopefully safely quarantined, until I have dealt with those things in my personal life that absolutely have to be dealt with right now and I can get back to them. As a bonus I have been able to rescue all the pictures of the dacha except for the one of the Queen Anne’s lace.

I will also be looking for what’s left of the movie thread and posting it as a password protected post. Somewhere further down this thread languagehat comments:…”I was glad to see the movie thread disappear; it made me uncomfortable…” that’s clear enough. If Hat is uncomfortable–for poorly articulated reasons, for reasons no one else can understand (and I can’t), or for no reason at all–that should settle the matter. The only people who have any right to look at the thread now have the password already.

At the end I put my own ruminations, off the top of my head and unedited–sorry, I still badly need refrigeration and a current vehicle sticker and to find the source of that gas odor–and don’t have time to translate it into academese or hide the meanings behind fancy circumlocutions…. No one, or hardly anyone will read this thread, so I will be a bit more candid that I would be ordinarily.

Pictures (& Now, More Pictures) Of Mab’s Dacha.
3 July 2009 · 66 Comments

Mab has sent me three photographs taken at her dacha — ! her dacha ! — outside Moscow. It’s SO interesting to see where the Hatters live.

These are older pictures taken with a not-very-good camera. The road in the dacha community where my little house is:

small dacha road

the light one morning, taken after I came out of the outhouse and saw what I call “Hester Prynne” light:

early light at dacha copy

and one of my cats with a spectacular mushroom (I stuck her there to show the size of the mushroom):

trixie and mushroom copy

An update, July 5, from mab (I ought to mention that if you click two times on the pictures you will get them much enlarged and in more detail): These pictures I took Friday late afternoon with my better camera.

This mushroom definitely looks poisonous….

deadly-mushroom-copy

The Queen Anne’s Lace had a nice bug on it:) (Click twice to see the bug at a reasonable size –AJP)

lace-and-bug-july-09-copy

I rent two rooms built on to the garage, with a kind of terrace between them. The yard shot is the view from my terrace looking back into the yard. My landlord’s house is a kind of double house (for two families), designed by my landlady’s brother-in-law, who is a relatively famous architect here. The “other side of the house” is the view of his side of the house from the back of the yard.

yard-july-09-copy

You can see that we don’t do much landscaping — we just live in the woods.

other-side-of-house-july-09

My dacha community was once just little wooden houses owned by scientists and mathematicians. But after they were privatized, they began to be sold off to rich jerks. The rich jerks generally cut down all the trees, plant grass (all the better to pretend that they are English lords), and built awful brick houses with turrets and windows in odd places (ditto on fake English lords). We hate them, and they hate us. BUT, they are rich and nervous (some walk their dogs with bodyguards…) and the result is that we now have excellent security out here. I don’t lock my car or door at night. A guard drives around three times a day, looking for burglars and assassins. There is something to be said for a good security force, especially if you aren’t paying for it.

→ 66 CommentsCategories: Uncategorized
The photos:

The comment thread:

Categories: Uncategorized
72 responses so far ↓

Nijma // 3 July 2009 at 11:33 pm | Reply

Incredible. I’ve never seen a dacha before. Now I want one.
*

A. J. P. Crown // 4 July 2009 at 3:47 am | Reply

Me too. How do they do those sunbeams? The Scarlet Letter isn’t very Russian.
*

Sili // 4 July 2009 at 5:00 pm | Reply

Very nice indeed.

And the cat is gorgeous.
*

MMcM // 4 July 2009 at 6:15 pm | Reply

So, what is the difference between the ‘birch’ mushroom and the ‘white’ mushroom? Are they what Americans call porcini?
o

A. J. P. Crown // 4 July 2009 at 6:49 pm | Reply

I’m sure you already know that белый гриб “white mushroom” or боровик is the wiki translation for the US porcini. The Norwegian is steinsopp (like Steinpilz in German) and they grow where we live, but we aren’t sure enough to pick them (we pick chanterelles, among others, though).

I suspect mab may be a Russian mushroom expert.
*

SnowLeopard // 4 July 2009 at 6:53 pm | Reply

MMcM — are you asking about the difference between Boletus edulis (porcini) and Agaricus bisporus (white/cremini/portobello)? I assume that this is a mycological question rather than a culinary one. I’m not familiar with a ‘birch’ mushroom, per se, and Wikipedia only directs me to Leccinum scabrum, a European species with which I’m unfamiliar.

Mushroom identification is endlessly fascinating and extremely difficult, often calling for spore prints, chemical assays, or microscopic study. At the moment I’m only equipped for the first of these. But as the vaguest of starting points, note that the porcini, being a bolete, has pores under the cap whereas the white/cremini/portobello has gills. Of course, many poisonous species match belong to either category.
*

MMcM // 4 July 2009 at 7:52 pm | Reply

What I’m asking is what are the two mushrooms in the wrong question:
— Какая же разница между бѣлымъ и березовымъ?
— Въ шляикѣ почти нѣтъ разницы, но въ корнѣ.
Either botanically or modern English common names. I’ve seen what Wikipedia says on Boletus edulis and Leccinum scabrum, but are those the two?
*

SnowLeopard // 4 July 2009 at 9:14 pm | Reply

Ah. Then my bookshelf probably won’t help you; mushroom guides tend to be pretty regional in scope. Both B. edulis and L. scabrum appear to be found throughout the northern hemisphere, and both are known to grow under birches, and L. scabrum’s name suggests bristles on the stalk, but neither is particularly white — the former being somewhat brownish to brownish-red, and the latter being, I think, a light brown. I’ve skimmed an English translation of the linked chapter and doubt there’s enough information to know what Tolstoy had in mind with any degree of certainty. Another mushroom referenced there, for example, said to have a red cap and white flesh, reminds me of the Russula emetica, which is said to have a peppery flavor and induce vomiting, at least when raw — pace Arora’s mention of its use in Himalayan cooking. I spotted one in the woods today but will not be sampling anytime soon.
*

MMcM // 4 July 2009 at 9:43 pm | Reply

I should have included it originally, but here is some English, with annoying (but fungally topical) ads, but without having to download the whole novel for just one chapter.

One of the things I am not completely certain on is indeed whether Tolstoy’s Russian readers would have specifically identified the references. I admit it’s possible not.

This is where dictionaries sometimes don’t do so well, latching onto one species, even when several are possible, or failing to note varietal distinctions more important to foragers and greengrocers than mycologists.
*

mab // 5 July 2009 at 9:19 am | Reply

The only problem this year at the dacha is that my server goes down for long periods without warning…

Isn’t it lovely out here? This is an old dacha community that first served the scientific elite — members of the Academy of Sciences — so the lots are big by Russian standards.

The mushroom is a porcini (”white”). An under-the-birch (подберезовик)is a birch bolete. I actually don’t know them well; I think you have to grow up picking them. When I go mushroom hunting with friends, I just stop and point like a setter and wait for someone to tell me if what I’ve spotted is edible or will kill me instantly. I can only pick out lisichki (chanterelles) and whites with any certainty. But I do know how to cook them (and eat them in large quantities).

Russians know them to every last blemish and coloration. I’ll find something I’m sure is fine, and they’ll say, “No no no — you see the fans under the cap? They should be slightly gray. And the shape is wrong — the stem should be straight, with no narrowing towards the cap….” And this is a 4-year-old speaking.

And isn’t my cat pretty? She’s a Siberian, a long-ago cross between a domestic shorthair and a Persian. She has incredibly long, thick and silky hair, short legs, and a kind of turned up nose. She has the silly name of Trixie. She was a stray my pet food store took in; they had run out of names and called her Triksi, which is simply the name of a German company whose pet supplies they import. But I had an old cat name Ed, and since I grew up watching the Honeymooners, I had to take her.
o

A. J. P. Crown // 5 July 2009 at 2:25 pm | Reply

Yes, Trixie’s a lovely cat. Don’t you have a picture of your other one?

Did the Famous Architect build the pale-yellow brick bits, or are they from an Academy of Sciences’ dacha?
*

Nijma // 5 July 2009 at 2:55 pm | Reply

Wow, more dacha pictures. I would have missed it if Kron hadn’t made a new comment on the thread and I saw it by accident.

Techi note: if you want to make a new post, but you want a different post to stay on the front page of your blog for a while, you can make it “sticky” so it is the first thing people see when they click on your URL.
o

A. J. P. Crown // 5 July 2009 at 6:23 pm | Reply

Thanks, I’ve now done this.
*

SnowLeopard // 5 July 2009 at 3:47 pm | Reply

The red mushroom looks like the red-capped variety of Amanita muscaria (fly agaric). The Amanitas are generally the most poisonous mushrooms and most likely to be lethal if ingested.

Looks like a fine, proud cat.
o

A. J. P. Crown // 5 July 2009 at 9:15 pm | Reply

The red mushroom looks like the red-capped variety of Amanita muscaria

Yes, that jibes with my Norwegian mushroom book.

I wonder if mushrooms in foreign languages are part of MMcM’s vegetarian book collection? If so, I’ve got a jolly good one for him.
*

mab // 5 July 2009 at 4:19 pm | Reply

Do I have pictures of my other cat? Can birds fly? (that is, will send).

Trixie is actually a slut cat who thinks she’s a Golden Retriever. She greets guests by flopping down on her back so that they can pet her white belly.

Ah, the architect figures it out. No, the famous architect’s side of the house has no yellow brick, and he rather disdains the in-laws for using it. But it was 1991, the country was bankrupt, and my landlords used whatever they could find to build up the house.

The red mushroom is actually an older picture, taken one late August. SnowLeopard knows his toadstools. It’s a very poisonous mushroom. But then, who’d want to eat it?
*

language hat // 5 July 2009 at 6:02 pm | Reply

One of the things I am not completely certain on is indeed whether Tolstoy’s Russian readers would have specifically identified the references. I admit it’s possible not.

As mab says, Russians know everything about mushrooms from the earliest age. I had a Russian visit me in Massachusetts and she took a basket as a matter of course when we took her on a nature walk, and spent quite a bit of time scouting the bases of trees. There is no chance Tolstoy’s readers would not have been fully au courant with his mushroom references. (I myself have a very useful book on Russian mushrooms that’s been of great help with Russian literature.)
o

empty // 5 July 2009 at 10:21 pm | Reply

1. I believe that it is unwise to trust visitors from across the sea in these matters, no matter how competent they are in distinguishing fungi at home. There will be useful local lore about just what detail distinguishes some food item from its evil twin, and there is no reason the visitors will know this.

2. My wife’s parents used to do some mushroom-foraging, and they had a friend who was much more knowledgeable about it. One day a basket of fungi appeared on their doorstep, with a note saying “thought you might be interested in these”, but some of them looked like seriously inedible varities. Puzzled as to whether they were really OK, they went to the friend’s house and caught him just as he was leaving. His response: “I didn’t mean interested in eating them; I meant interested in identifying them!”

3. Small pet peeve: The convention

mushroom = edible
toadstool = poisonous
+

A. J. P. Crown // 5 July 2009 at 10:29 pm | Reply

I thought a toadstool was something gnomes lived in.
*

dearieme // 5 July 2009 at 7:38 pm | Reply

Friends who lived in Basle said that they’d go a-mushrooming on a Sunday and then repair to the Municipal Mushroom Inspector, show him their harvest, and he’d pull out all the lethal ones for them.
o

A. J. P. Crown // 5 July 2009 at 9:08 pm | Reply

That happens here too. You can go to our local town on a Sunday afternoon and have your mushrooms evaluated by an amateur who knows what she’s looking at.

One of the many things that makes Norway a reasonable place to live is that people don’t often sue one another.
*

SnowLeopard // 5 July 2009 at 8:20 pm | Reply

he’d pull out all the lethal ones for them

I wonder what kind of premiums he pays for malpractice insurance. My understanding is that even in Russia, hundreds die each year from mushroom poisoning.
*

dearieme // 5 July 2009 at 8:30 pm | Reply

A mistake? In Switzerland? Hard to imagine.
*

mab // 5 July 2009 at 8:50 pm | Reply

SnowLeopard is right — people get sick and die here from mushrooms every year. Russians believe that either 1) they mutate or 2) mushrooms “soak” up the bad ecology.

But… Switzerland IS Switzerland.
*

bruessel // 6 July 2009 at 2:54 pm | Reply

Sorry this is off topic, but I didn’t know where else to post it: I was just about to reply to Language Hat: The Movie and now it’s gone. Tantalizingly, I can still see the references to the recent comments in the sidebar, but when I try to click on one of them, I’m told I’m *totally* in the wrong place, like I’ve done something really stupid. So, what gives?
o

A. J. P. Crown // 6 July 2009 at 3:51 pm | Reply

I’m sorry you missed it. It was getting a bit rude and rowdy, so I’ve taken it away. A far better idea than mine anyway was Grumbly Stu’s Barchester Towers, here.
+

empty // 6 July 2009 at 5:33 pm | Reply

In my opinion you were wise to remove it. I have been thinking that this romp, engaging as it was for a number of us, offered some of the same dangers as the “amateur theatricals” in Jane Austen’s “Mansfield Park”.
#

A. J. P. Crown // 6 July 2009 at 8:53 pm | Reply

Mansfield Park would be a good one to cast after Barchester Towers. I see Noetica as Mrs Norris and of course Grumbly as Fanny Price.
+

Nijma // 6 July 2009 at 7:59 pm | Reply

I’ve never heard of that towers thing you keep linking to. Am I missing something?
#

SnowLeopard // 6 July 2009 at 8:15 pm | Reply

Barchester Towers is a novel by Anthony Trollope, who’s one of the better 19th-century English novelists.
#

A. J. P. Crown // 6 July 2009 at 8:43 pm | Reply

You can look at Grumbly’s page and then read a bit about the novel on Wiki. I’m almost sure they’d have it at your public library. You should read “The Warden” first, before you read BT, because they are both part of a series.
#

Nijma ex machina // 6 July 2009 at 9:30 pm | Reply

The only thing I remember from that era in England is Mrs. Malaprop from Sheridan’s The Rivals. It didn’t encourage me to seek out more of the same, so perhaps my education in this area has been neglected. Grumbly’s page and the Wiki were likewise uninspiring, or I wouldn’t have asked. Reminds me of the thread on LH where everyone talked about the sound of the words in a given work. I had always read for content. It persuaded me to read Hemingway for the first time, and although he didn’t really resonate with me, I saw his complex sentence structures and started to get an idea of what people were talking about. I also started being less afraid to write complex sentences, I habit I got out of after I took English 101.
+

bruessel // 6 July 2009 at 9:50 pm | Reply

Fair enough, it’s your blog and your decision, but I probably wouldn’t have been so confused if I hadn’t still been able to see and click on the comment links, although that didn’t take me anywhere useful. As a matter of fact, the links are still there now. Why did you not remove them as well?
#

Teacher // 6 July 2009 at 10:35 pm | Reply

He can’t remove them if they are merely “private”. It’s the way the this particular theme works. If he wants them to disappear from the comments he would have to type

visibility>edit>public>okay (it is still invisible to the public at this point), then

status>edit>pending review>okay
then “publish”. They are all then invisible on the front page.

Instead of “pending review” he could also select “draft”. (I just tested these on my blog that has the same theme.)

The only advantage of “pending review” over “draft” is that if you tend to have a lot of drafts (I keep minor passwords, like for computer lab, in unpublished drafts), it makes it easier to find it if you want to do something with it later.
*

empty // 6 July 2009 at 2:58 pm | Reply

I’m guessing Crown has taken away that page temporarily for some editing.
*

Nijma ex machina // 6 July 2009 at 9:00 pm | Reply

If you look at the number of comments for “Language Hat the Movie” it’s pretty impressive. I counted 62 comments, not including the ones that were deemed offensive. Nothing I have written has ever generated that kind of interest.

Part of the reason it’s so fascinating is because of the nature of the internet. How do you interact with someone without being able to see and hear them? Trying to choose a character/actor for someone gives us more clues about who they are–clues we normally get from non-verbal signals. Seeing what character someone else chooses for us is also fun, because it hopefully gives us a mirror to how we are communicating in this still-new technology.

I’m not sure exactly what was said, but I’m guessing someone was offended by someone else’s internet behaviour and instead of asking them about it, made disparaging remarks about the actor/alter-ego playing them. It could probably happen on any thread. In all fairness, the thread also did have some very well thought out and complex and insightful comments as well.

From the techie standpoint there are several options. Comments can be edited or deleted. Personally I have never deleted anything, including hate speech, although I do point out what it is and why it’s offensive. Profanity I edit with asterisks (I tell WordPress I’m child-friendly.) You can also close comments on a particular thread, or you can open a new thread to discuss a particular topic. As far as individual commenters, you can ban someone by putting their IP in the filter, or you can put specific words in the filter so they will be held for moderation and you have to approve the comment before it does public. For that matter you can put your whole blog in moderation, but that’s a bit extreme and is usually only done in the case of stalkers.
*

Stuart // 7 July 2009 at 12:14 am | Reply

Perhaps to go with our Grumbly Stu I could be Sycophant Stu because I applaud the decision to remove the “movie” page. AJP’s blog is a real oasis of tranquility for me and anything that restores that is to be applauded.
o

A. J. P. Crown // 7 July 2009 at 12:21 am | Reply

You could be Crumbly Stu (with a C).
*

empty // 7 July 2009 at 4:21 am | Reply

Seriously, I had a nagging sense all along that there was something ill-advised about this casting game. It did not stop me from playing the game, but it was there all the same. I have been thinking of saying something about it, but have been held back by not wanting to be a wet blanket. I’m glad it’s over; I don’t know how much my reasons overlap with the reasons behind with Crown’s decision; I’d like to post this even though the point is now, in a way, moot.

I stumbled upon the LH blog two or three weeks ago. (An idle search for references to Daffy Duck’s line “pronoun trouble” happens to be what brought me there.) It was love at first sight, and I have been hanging around ever since. I have also been hanging around Bad Guide. (These are the first blogs that I have ever frequented.)

Not that all of what goes on at LH means much to me, but I was drawn right in by the factual content, the sense of shared interests, the spirit of fun, and something harder to define. My appreciation for this community has been deepened by dipping into the archives. I saw newcomers showing uncertainty, being welcomed gracefully, and coming to see themselves as part of the gang. I came across a couple of long threads from last year in which some real strains that developed were dealt with in a way that reflected the good intentions of all concerned. (I am thinking of the very long one in which Crown was said to have been thrown in the pool, and the other one where people were getting their panties in a twist.)

It is famously difficult to communicate nuance of feeling over the internet. I personally worry sometimes about whether something I have written will be taken in the right spirit, or even about whether I meant it in the right spirit. Internet contact can bring us close together while at the same time keeping us far apart. The lack of faces and voices makes for a lot of guesswork, as does the fact that you do not entirely know who will be reading what you write. In view of all these difficulties I marvel at the successful establishment of such a sense of cohesiveness and trust at LH.

Some of this has been said by Nijma in this thread, but I’m not inclined to put such a positive spin on it, in relation to the casting game, as she did.

I worried about some Hatters feeling left out, feeling left out of some inner circle, if they didn’t find out about the game until after the fact. I worried about hard feelings on the part of those who were not mentioned. I worried about giving offense to people who are very much part of the LH community but who present a more serious front, by involving them, even passively, against their will. I worried about the sudden potential for new kinds of one-upsmanship. I worried about us giving offense to each other by presuming more intimacy than was appropriate, maybe in the course of striving to be in the inner circle.

Okay, I didn’t worry about all of this right away, and I didn’t put it into words for myself until now, but it has been bothering me, and I have been asking myself whether I want to speak out. It’s possible that my concerns were baseless, but I don’t see any downside to expressing them.

In fact, if Crown had not put a stop to the casting game, I might have aired all these concerns and suggested that, just in case there are any hard feelings about this anywhere, we should blame it all on Crown and, in a collective gesture of unity and cleansing, throw him in the pool again. But under the circs I think we can skip that.
*

Nijma // 7 July 2009 at 6:02 am | Reply

I worried about some Hatters feeling left out, feeling left out of some inner circle,… I worried about…I worried about…I worried about us giving offense to each other by presuming more intimacy than was appropriate, maybe in the course of striving to be in the inner circle.

This is just plain weird on so many levels.

So what was the offensive comment about?
o

empty // 7 July 2009 at 6:21 am | Reply

Nijma,

I am not aware of any particularly offensive comment. I don’t know any more than you do about what led Crown to make the thread go away. I never even saw any comments on that thread after my last one about Andie MacDowell.

I know how I was feeling, and I have tried to explain part of it. I want to add that another part of how I was feeling was that we are all having some harmless fun. But I wanted to acknowledge those concerns, in case it helped anyone who had similar concerns or whose feelings had been hurt a little.

I’m not laying any blame. I know that I have been heavy-handed in expressing myself. I was pretty sure I was making a little too much of a big deal of this, but on the other hand I had something to say that seemed important to me.
o

Nijma // 7 July 2009 at 6:41 am | Reply

I should have made my question more clear. What was the offensive comment about, AJP. In general. If you don’t mind “sharing”.
*

Stuart // 7 July 2009 at 6:10 am | Reply

This is all getting a bit pointlessly polysyllabic and pataphysical for my tastes. When the pretty pictures and simple comments come back, so will I. All this talk of “inner circles” reminds me too much of Usenet esoterica.
*

empty // 7 July 2009 at 6:26 am | Reply

I’ve never heard of Usenet. I am new around here. I am suddenly very embarrassed. I liked it when this was an oasis, too. Sorry. Can we just rewind, please?
*

empty // 7 July 2009 at 6:28 am | Reply

And, Crown, that stuff about throwing you in the pool was meant to be a light touch. Please don’t take offense.
*

Siganusk // 7 July 2009 at 6:49 am | Reply

Protected: Language Hat: The Movie.
4 July 2009 • 62 Comments
This post is password protected. To view it please enter your password below:

Oh my, this blog is becoming a Clan des 7* of its own. Or is it a club, with restricted membership? What on Earth has been said there that cannot stay in the public eye? Not that Grumbly Stu has been dressing like a Tijuana whore I hope! (An illustrated article, a piece of video?)

Never did I imagine that this movie was not to be seen by people under 18. But I shall wait, patiently.

* Secret Seven
o

Nijma // 7 July 2009 at 7:08 am | Reply

Oooh! Kron! If it’s got pic of
Grumbly, send me the password!!!1! My email is on my blog.
o

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 8:30 am | Reply

All visual evidence was destroyed 44 years ago. I even burned the negatives. So you guys can recall the sleuths and save yourselves the investigative expense accounts. Nobody can prove that I wasn’t just making it all up.

As to The Movie: I think that, as time went on, JJ was experiencing the same qualms as those now described so well by empty. I certainly was. One of my last comments, before the riot police moved in, was that “what had begun as a pleasant conceit was degenerating into tackiness”.
+

Nijma // 7 July 2009 at 8:41 am | Reply

degenerating into tackiness

…whereas before we were talking about high-minded stuff like Grumbly’s miniskirt outfit with the purple fuzzy sweater and how to amuse people at parties by pulling long strings of snot out of your nose.
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 9:16 am | Reply

This is just plain weird on so many levels.Nijma, you’ve said several times, as above, that for a long time you were only able to “read for content”, and didn’t understand “the thread on LH where everyone talked about the sound of the words in a given work”. If that were true, it would explain why you don’t seem to understand the feelings that empty wrote about, and why you call them “weird”.

But I don’t actually buy your story. You’re just as capable of insinuation and snide asides as I am, or any of us (some of us, anyway) – capable of dishing it out, and of suspecting we are the target of it. Where you and I differ, apart from taste in frizzy sweaters, is that I back down explicitly and frankly when I feel belatedly that I’ve overstepped the line, or see that someone is seriously offended by something I’ve written – whether or not it was intentional on my part. But I get the impression you would rather cut your throat than eat crow, or even acknowledge what’s on the plate the waitress has just slammed down in front of you. You clutch your grievances like a terrier biting a shoe. Let up already!
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 9:26 am | Reply

Again I must remind you that it was not “pulling long strings of snot out of your nose”, but dribbling long strings of saliva out of your mouth. The mouth is below the nose, and has very different functions, even at parties.
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 9:32 am | Reply

And that was a completely different thread, if I may be permitted the pun.
*

A. J. P. Crown // 7 July 2009 at 10:27 am | Reply

This post is password protected.
I put it up so that Bruessel, having been herself portrayed in it (by David Suchet, aka Poirot), could at least take a look at what was going on. Now it’s been destroyed; the pieces of code were sunk in concrete containers to the bottom of the deepest fjord in Norway.

She replied:

I wanted to add the comment that at least you’d cast someone for me I actually like. Of course, if I had a choice, I would like to be portrayed by Marlene Dietrich. And I was going to ask you about Sylvester Stallone and your secret wish to be an action hero.

(The answer to that is it’s Sylvester Stallone who wishes to play me.)

There was no one outburst that made me take it down, it was more that I didn’t like the tone and I was feeling queasy about the whole game (Grumbly’s is much better and, what’s more, it might even encourage Nij not to write-off Trollope — who, in addition to writing all those novels, also invented the post-office pillar box).

I pretty much agree with everything empty wrote, above (at 4:21 am). I think empty would be a very good blogger; perhaps he could write one with tgg , nafahthi and Russell Crowe.
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 10:40 am | Reply

perhaps he could write one with tgg , nafahthi and Russell Crowe

What a fabulous idea! I’m going to ask Mabel to contribute more to my site, and bring her friends along.
o

A. J. P. Crown // 7 July 2009 at 12:01 pm | Reply

I didn’t know she had any friends.
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 12:45 pm | Reply

Of course she has friends. As I’ve related at Hat, she dates Jan Phillip Reemtsma occasionally, which elevates the tone of her circle somewhat (though I suspect she’s primarily interested in the duty-free cigarettes he brings from Germany). Recently she made new acquaintance in the Juárez pokey, where she had to spend a week due to a misunderstanding about smuggling. A waitress has to get along with all kinds of folks. She has a heart of gold, as many a wronged woman in the past has had.

You don’t frequent such social strata, I suspect, so you may imagine things to be worse than they are. The weather in Norway probably keeps hot-blooded low-life at bay, so perhaps you don’t even have opportunities to improve and instruct yourself on these matters. Seen from within, though, it’s just Dickens-on-the-city and Hardy-on-the-country. jamessal, in his book, presented all the characters with complete impartiality, no goodies and no baddies. That kind of literary probity is a hard thing to achieve, and I think he did it well. Life itself is almost impossible to handle in that way.

Consider my graceful manners and urbane conversation, for instance. Do they not more than compensate my unclubbable origins in the flesh-pots of West Texas? Didn’t you just suggest that I should play Fanny Price?
*

empty // 7 July 2009 at 12:56 pm | Reply

I was afraid to look this morning and see more evidence that I had been just acting weird and ruining things for people. I was beginning to wonder if I was the one who needed to be thrown in the water this time. Thanks for the support, Grumbly and Crown. I think I will have a better night’s sleep tonight.
*

empty // 7 July 2009 at 12:58 pm | Reply

Nobody is unclubbable here. But did you have to club Nijma so hard?
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 1:26 pm | Reply

This all has a history, going back to my first weeks at Hat. Sometimes one has to get things off one’s chest, even though silence would be the better part in a public forum. All I ask of Nijma is: let up already! ‘Nuff said.
*

A. J. P. Crown // 7 July 2009 at 1:41 pm | Reply

a history, going back to my first weeks at Hat
It sounds like boarding school.

How does Mabel know German tobacco money like the Reemtsma family? Or does she come from very old cigarettes herself?
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 2:08 pm | Reply

Yes, much like boarding school as I know it from English novels. In Texas, we had to go out on the range to gather experiences in bullying, subordination and furtive fumbling.

Mabel chipped in for the first time as “Mabel (Waitress)” in this Hat thread, as far as I can reconstruct things. There, among other things, she mentions dating Reemtsma “when he passes through town” (El Paso), though typically she doesn’t say exactly how she met him.
*

A. J. P. Crown // 7 July 2009 at 2:36 pm | Reply

That was quite an interesting thread, Stu.

Amazing grasp of German Mabel has, considering she’s from El Paso. How’s her Spanish?
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 2:50 pm | Reply

Serviceable, like the goats in season.
*

Grumbly Stu // 7 July 2009 at 3:02 pm | Reply

I mean: pretty good when she’s in the mood.
*

language hat // 7 July 2009 at 4:13 pm | Reply

Well said. As for not clubbing Nijma, if she would somehow restrain herself from coming into a perfectly pleasant thread and saying something like “This is just plain weird on so many levels” to someone who is trying hard to explain difficult feelings, she wouldn’t have to experience the occasional clubbings. She combines a cheerful willingness to offend others with eagerness to take offense herself, never a winning combo.
*

language hat // 7 July 2009 at 4:14 pm | Reply

Oh, and I was glad to see the movie thread disappear; it made me uncomfortable too, for reasons that empty described better than I could.
*

jamessal // 7 July 2009 at 7:32 pm | Reply

Wow, what a thread to have missed! As Hat and Crown know, I’ve been on vacation, travelling south for BBQ and fried chicken — all of which food ventures will of course be recounted on Robin’s blog: caviarandcodfish.com. For now, let me just say (since I’m sleepless after catching a cold) that Savanna, GA, absolutely seduced us. We love that city. The spanish moss draped all over every oak tree makes the whole place sad and creepy and really, really sexy.

Mab: To answer your question in the Muntz thread, Champ is a mutt: part (we’re constantly guessing) rottweiler, mastiff, yellow lab, German shepherd, chow (spots on tongue), and maybe some akita. He’s the most snuggly dog I’ve ever met, let alone owned.

Your cats look really impressive. How much do they weigh? And the dacha is just gorgeous.

jamessal, in his book, presented all the characters with complete impartiality, no goodies and no baddies. That kind of literary probity is a hard thing to achieve, and I think he did it well.

Thanks, Grumbly! After spending some time just now in the Savannah slums (they’re gorgeous, in their way; plus, great fried chicken), I may have to try describing such strata again, in one form or another (though this time as more of an outsider). It is tricky, neither romanticizing nor condescending (nor being boring!).

Empty: I’m glad you found us! Having watched Good Fellas a hundred times as a teenager, I was tickled to be played by Robert DeNiro. But no, you were dead-on. Well said.
*

jamessal // 7 July 2009 at 8:57 pm | Reply

Having watched Good Fellas a hundred times as a teenager, I also know it’s spelled Goodfellas.
*

mab // 8 July 2009 at 10:27 am | Reply

jamessal: is Champ a Leaner? You know — the kind of dog who lopes up to you when you are sitting at the table and leans against you? Well, in any case, he’s clearly true to his name.

I don’t know who much the Trickster weighs. Every time the vets come — in Moscow THIS IS GOING TO MAKE YOU ALL SICK WITH ENVY the vets come to your house — I say in a small voice, “I guess she’s overweight, huh?” The vet always says, Нормально! It’s her constitution, you see.

(In a small voice again) I think of LH and this blog as the internet equivalents of my dacha: a peaceful place to hang out with witty, intelligent, knowledgeable people. Sometimes the electricity goes off at the dacha or — like now — we go through day after day after week of cold rainy weather. Or sometimes someone has a bad hair day on the blogs. Oh well. Бывает.
*

A. J. P. Crown // 8 July 2009 at 11:00 am | Reply

Нормально! Vet’s visits, big-boned constitution — if only they were Нормально.

Thanks for that mab.

And now, due to the demands of house, family, garden and (other) animals, I will be taking a holiday from blogging.
*

language hat // 9 July 2009 at 2:47 am | Reply

I will be taking a holiday from blogging.

Well, come back soon, for Pete’s sake! We’ve become accustomed to our daily goat (or dacha, as the case may be)!
*

bruessel // 9 July 2009 at 11:25 am | Reply

I second what Hat said!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

≈||≈||≈||≈||≈||≈||≈||≈||≈

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ruminations

First I was trying to figure out what was this “clubbing” they keep referring to on the comments thread. The only thing it could possibly refers to is a question I asked about a fairly esoteric 18th century novelist. Instead of providing information, they ridiculed me for asking the question. I guess that’s the little bit of elitism they cling to to try to feel adequate about themselves.

But as Grumbly indicated, there is also a history between us that goes back to when we both first started commenting on the blog. After I had posted some comment late at night, he appeared for the first time, sidled up to me, and tried to get me to bully another commenter with him. Bonding by manufacturing a common enemy, as it were. I don’t like bullying, but one thing I know is that if you don’t join a bully, you can very quickly become their next target. So, I simply stayed away from him, not hard to do since I’m not interested in any of the same languages or academic subjects he is. He came after me anyhow, demanding to know how many languages I was fluent in and what right I had to post any comment on the blog. He since has kept up a low level of catty remarks I’m fairly sure are directed at me but without mentioning me by name.

There are plenty of passive-aggressive people you meet in the psyche wards, and walking around on the street as well, not to mention at work (although my current job is remarkable for its lack of jerks) so I’m not all that excited about it, except that I’m disappointed that Hat went out of his way to condone their bullying. I didn’t think he was like that, but I suppose it’s just another hat he can put on. Still, I don’t think my initial impression of Hat as someone with insight and unusual diplomacy was wrong. I’m thinking of the saying “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”, so maybe if I keep my eyes open I’ll learn something.

Here’s Hat’s entire statement:

Holy shit, where do I even start with this? Maybe with the blame-the-victim assumption that a person who is attacked must have provoked it? With the assumption that someone else’s feelings, whether genuine or not, are important, while mine are not? With the assumption that I am responsible for controlling someone else’s actions, presumably by acting fearful, keeping my mouth shut, and not speaking the truth, rather than that they are responsible for controlling their own actions?

trying hard to explain difficult feelings
As far as “empty’s” lengthy confessional, I’m afraid I’m a bit cynical about his sudden hindsight, that also coincided with the decision that the admin took. Maybe I wouldn’t have been if he hadn’t been so clingy when he appeared on the scene, constantly trying to engage me when I was responding some someone else’s comment and even doing the “why are you mad at me” guilt trip routine when I had the nerve to leave the thread to go to work. I don’t have the idea that LH is a chat room or that I have an obligation to respond immediately to every non sequitur every commenter makes, or help them solve their separation anxiety problems, or to help them agonize over choosing a screen name when I myself don’t even have basic necessities in my new place yet, but by having a life of my own and not being eternally and selflessly available, I seem to have made an enemy. The commenter’s sudden conversion to not liking the movie thread also coincidently came after another commenter called the movie character he said he preferred “Russell ‘hamitupmaximus’ Crowe”, said “The guy has much the same effect on me as alcohol – just a whiff is enough to induce nausea”, and called him a “Shatneresque tub of lard”. Ooh! That had to hurt.

What am I supposed to have taken offense over? I don’t understand that one either. And if someone is offended by something I said, why don’t they say so instead of engaging in catty ad homs. I don’t see anything wrong with taking offense.

a perfectly pleasant thread
So far the thread goes into playing with saliva as a party trick, braggadocio over creating a sock puppet that ridicules waitresses as uneducated prostitutes, and even refers to the innocent goats–who can’t even defend themselves and have given everyone so much happiness–in the most degrading of sexual terms. Molly Ivins said it best: “Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel — it’s vulgar.” After reading this “pleasant” thread, I feel like I need a shower–with Lysol.

…if she would somehow restrain herself from …saying something like “This is just plain weird on so many levels”
So I should just STFU, huh. Well, I suppose I wish I had thought of the “pointlessly polysyllabic and pataphysical” line instead of using the word “weird”, but my comment is about a statement (a weird statement) and not a person. Was it wise to say so? Or should I have just backed away slowly….? I do notice that no one is saying the statement was NOT weird.

Here’s that part of the statement again:

Again, this one is hard to take apart. The paragraph is in the middle of a long exposition makes it clear the writer is looking for a blog to fill his psychological needs. The tone is set by emotionally charged words like “feelings”, “games”, “intimacy”, “passively”, “against their will”. Good Lord, we’re talking about comparing commenters to movie stars. You would think they were putting cameras in their bedrooms or something. It’s like an avatar. Speculating about what someone looks like when they walk out of the front door into the PUBLIC every morning.

Then there is “LH community” thing. As far as I know, no one on the blog knows anyone else, and they live in vastly separated parts of the world. A large number are linguists, and speak their own professional language, although I have taken courses with enough linguistics content that I can usually puzzle out what they are talking about. I read the blog to help with my job, and I do appreciate the times the professionals have stopped to explain what they were doing. I try not to pester anyone and to give back at least part of what I have received by commenting about subjects that are on my bookshelves and by trying to make my comments as interesting as I can.

striving to be in the inner circle
What inner circle? What, is Hat supposed to have the power to confer tenure or something? Ha! The “inner circle” is cats. You won’t see me competing for kitty kibble; it has to be chocolate.

the sudden potential for new kinds of one-upsmanship
WTF? What kind of person is this who would even think of such a thing? When has anyone acted competitive, instead of collaborative on LH?

My comment on this has run to some 1400 words. That qualifies as an obsession. No blog should have the power to ruin my life like that. Kron has inspired me: it’s time for me to take a break from blogging as well. Already I have stopped reading the posts and comments as thoughly as I would like. (Last week I wanted to follow up reading on the northern cities vowel shift, but already I’ve forgotten where to find the link.) I shall Lurk Moar, waiting for the day when “feelingshat” turns back into “languagehat”.