Norwegian Stavekirke and Thailand temple: geneticists’ forum thread about Buddhaism in Norway #2

Geneticist Thread #2:
This thread is the second of two from a forum of geneticists discussing the influence or Buddhism in Norway. It is of possible interest in the relationship between Norway’s Stavkirke and the Thailand Buddhist temples which share too may similarities to be accidental.

> Asoka: From India to Scandinavia with Buddhism?

Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 08:50 AM

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BUDDHIST (?) PRACTICES IN SCANDINAVIA
That there have been practises similar to Buddhism in Scandinavia is supported in a book called ” The Ceremonies and Religious Customs of the Various Nations” (1725), the illustrations actually show how they are offering to a statue with crowned head and amulet on chest, holding a stick (Vajra?). Picart illustrated Buddha in similar ways for instance in India and Ceylon, see pictures in added site.

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/Pre-ChristianDeityScandinaviaPic-1.jpg)
A pre-Christian Scandinavian deity Picart (1725).

These engravings likely reflect the remains of Buddhism in Scandinavia and Buddhism might be a forceful explanation of why it took so long to Christianise parts of the population in the Nordic areas.

It is known that Picart was a propagandist of Christianity and often made rather ridiculing illustrations and descriptions of people practising other religions.

You can see examples in the following site:

Take a look at the images in this URL to see for instance how he illustrated Ceylonese worshiping of religious deities, and how he illustrates worshipping of Shiva in India. Picart, 1723.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritche…art/picart.html

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/WorshippingThor-Pre-ChristianDei-1.jpg) (IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/SaamiGodcarvedinstonephotobyWorm-Pe.jpg)
Worshipping of the God Thor in Scandinavia. This is an illustration of a pre-Christian Deity (Picart 1725). A God carved in stone photo by Worm-Petersen (1914), this was likely Thor. It seems like Thor was another God than the Buddha-like God in the first engraving of this posting.

Thor was described as the God of the Goths or Geats (ref. “Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalibus” by Olaus Magnus, 1555). The Goths mixed with the people of origin here, that is known from the Norse Mythologies. The mix of European and Asian people likely resulted in and is reflected in the Vikings culture of Scandinavia. It seems like the Saami people are mix of the old peoples of Scandinavia, Europeans and Asians as well as with newer people migrating to these areas. The Goths were far back in history more likely of South Asian origin, however they might have been a 50:50 mix of southern and eastern Asian if they for instance had Khotan / Kushan origins. If the Goths mixed with the Scandinavian indigenous people and these later became the Vikings, then the Goths must have been the ones that came with Buddha and Buddhist ornaments. Was Thor part of Buddhism or did he belong to the first people of Scandinavia?

It seems like there is need to look into Iron Age history in Scandinavia (Norway and Sweden) to understand what happened with the “Buddhist” Vikings that always have been described as Pagan. There is something is clearly missing in our story here. There are good reasons to question the pagan-descriptions of the Vikings. I doubt the correctness of Snorre when it comes to offering humans, to my knowledge that kind of offerings do not excist within Buddhist practises. Telling such awful stories might have been part of a pro-Christian campaign, in the same way as we later see with for instance Picart.

According to Wikipedia-sources it is told that many farms were built between 300-600 CE in the southern and western areas of Norway. That fits well with the “Buddhist” Vikings that seem to have brought new agricultural technologies here. However this article tells that something seems to have happened, because these farms were left during 600 CE. During 700eds a new agricultural expansion starts in the same areas. With and increase in the number of inhabitants in south, mid and northern Norway. http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jernalderen_i_Norge

Is the timing of new immigrations to Norway twisted, in the same way as the truth about religious practices?

The same trust in our official history is reflected in the following book:
“Archaeology and World Religion” by Timothy Insoll (2001)
In Scania in southern Sweden, for example, the long-standing pagan practice of making lake and bog-offerings appears to have been abandoned in the sixth century, before the introduction of Christianity. This change in ritual practice roughly coincided with the introduction of timbered halls as the most prominent type of building in local settlements, and thus could be related to changes in the local social structure, which may in turn have laid the foundations for the subsequent adoption of Christian beliefs by the elite (Fabech 1999:459).” (End of quote from “Archaeology and World Religion” by Timothy Insoll, 2001)

My Question is: Then why does the Timbered halls (Stavkirke) have Stupa-temple similar constructions and clearly Asian ornaments that fits well with the Viking symbolism from about 400 CE?

What has actually happened? (I do not have an answer but there must be some historical deceptions around).

Christianisatity triumphed early as a religion at least for the power elites in some Nordic areas, however the Christian religion does not seem to have affected the kings and queens buried in Oseberg or Gokstad in Norway during the 800eds CE. Clearly a religion with Buddhist symbolism have been present in Sweden and Norway at least from 400 CE or earlier and until about 900 – 1000 CE . We know that Asians were present in the Nordic as early somewhere between c. 300 – 50 BCE, referring to the finding of a bogman called Grauballeman / Grauballemanden in Denmark, so they likely have come here well before 400 CE. I do not know if they ever tested his haplogroup. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Grauballemanden.jpg

The Norse mythologies were written by Snorre, the politician, after new populations had settled in. Snorre died in 1240 CE. Were these myths partly constructed political tools rather than fairly reflecting an old history tradition? Did the camouflaging of Buddhism in the Nordic start with Snorre? Mythology has been a known and often used powerful political tool for a long time.

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evon

post Oct 29 2008, 10:41 AM

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 28 2008, 11:06 PM) *
Saami do not have any East Asian Y-DNA.

Perhaps you meant mtDNA: cf. Kristiina Tambets et al., “The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saami—the Story of Genetic
‘Outliers’ Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes,” American Journal of Human Genetics 74:661–682, 2004. This study has 6/445 = 1.3% haplogroup Z and 14/445 = 3.1% haplogroup D5 for a total of 20/445 = 4.5% mtDNA belonging to haplogroups that might be more common among some Asian populations (but not necessarily East Asians) than among other European populations. It is not certain that there is an East Asian connection even for this 4.5% of Saami mtDNA, however; I think I have read that haplogroup Z is more common among some populations of the Volga-Ural region than anywhere in Asia, and, if I am not mistaken, haplogroup D5 is also found among other populations in eastern Europe and the Middle East (Kurds, etc.), so its presence is not limited to East Asian populations.

Most Saami mtDNA belongs either to haplogroup U5b or to haplogroup V, which are both considered to be typically European (or at least not “East Asian”).

Besides the somewhat exotic D5 and Z, haplogroups H, U5a, W, and T also have been found in lesser percentages of Saami, but these other minor Saami haplogroups are all typically European (or, again, at least not East Asian).

actually they have some N Y-DNA which is Eurasian, but which can be classified as Asian.

i know they have very little or No MtDNA that would indicate Asian ancestry, but they clearly have some via the Y-DNA-..but it is widely believed that the peoples who had N were the ones who gave the Saami the languages they speak today, as they integrated with the mtDNA U5’s and V’s ect..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 11:29 AM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 29 2008, 11:41 AM) *
actually they have some N Y-DNA which is Eurasian, but which can be classified as Asian.

i know they have very little or No MtDNA that would indicate Asian ancestry, but they clearly have some via the Y-DNA-..but it is widely believed that the peoples who had N were the ones who gave the Saami the languages they speak today, as they integrated with the mtDNA U5’s and V’s ect..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)

From population genetics studies it seems like mtDNA U5b and V is nearly 90 % of Saami women. The earliest Scandinavians were unlikely the ones that came with Buddhism here, since these are defined as European genes in the same way as y-chromosomal haplogroup I1a that also is part of the Saami genetic pool. The Saami have also 14% of haplogroup J, however I am not sure when men with J migrated here and from where… see Raitio et al. (2001). http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471

The Goths were likely R1a or R1a1 men.

I am convinced that there are ancestors of the Vikings, not only in the present Saami populations. You mentioned for instance Western Norway (24.3%) and Dupuy et al. found 31.5 % in Mid Norway.

R1a /R1a1 is found in Northern Norway (nearly 30%, Dupuy et al. 2005), remember the christianisation and norwegianisation that have taken place in these areas, in Norway they have not tested the Saami isolated. That is a pity because the Norwegian Saami very likely reflects the old people of Scandinavia to a larger extent than the Saami of Finland and Sweden (with many newer Russian migrations). The Swedish Saami have 20% R1a / R1a1 and the Russian Saami have 21.7% according to Tambets et al. (2004). If there was small frequencies of haplogroup N among the Vikings is not known. I have found no studies that indicate a presence of y-chromosomal N in Viking graves. However I have not read all reports, do you know of any?

The concentrated European mtDNA in the oldest populations in present Scandinavia, in addition to the rare or non-existent mtDNA haplogroup-motifs found in Viking graves in Norway and Denmark again raise the question if the Asian (Buddhist) people came as seafarers. This might explain something, because the Goths then unlikely brought many women.

Khotans seems to have been of mixed origin, Greeks, Chinese, and Indian. Even if the Goths were of Khotan origin, some of them might have come from India as seafarers or via land migrations or a combination. The Khotans invaded India in the 2nd century BCE. I will post some information about the Khotan later on.

The Saami language might have come with people from Asia, India as well as Central or Northern Asia. There are some controversies about whether early Pictish (see earlier posting) originally was an IE language, many place names in Pictish resembles Saami. I simply do not know from where and when the Saami language came. It might have come with groups that migrated here before the Goths, the boat people, such as the Celtiberian, Galatian · Gaulish, Lepontic, and Noric. These were likely the Boat people of Europe. They were not the same as the Goths, however might have come from the same areas in the old river delta civilizations.

Experts might tell about this and the controversies regarding the Saami language, likely there are as many opinions as there are experts. It seems obvious that much authority is behind the efforts to disguise the real facts of the old cultures and religions of Scandinavia.

______

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evon

post Oct 29 2008, 12:07 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 29 2008, 12:29 PM) *
From population genetics studies it seems like mtDNA U5b and V is nearly 90 % of Saami women. The earliest Scandinavians were unlikely the ones that came with Buddhism here, since these are defined as European genes in the same way as y-chromosomal haplogroup I1a that also is part of the Saami genetic pool. The Saami have also 14% of haplogroup J, however I am not sure when men with J migrated here and from where… see Raitio et al. (2001). http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471

The Goths were likely R1a or R1a1 men.

I am convinced that there are ancestors of the Vikings, not only in the present Saami populations. You mentioned for instance Western Norway (24.3%) and Dupuy et al. found 31.5 % in Mid Norway.

R1a /R1a1 is found in Northern Norway (nearly 30%, Dupuy et al. 2005), remember the christianisation and norwegianisation that have taken place in these areas, in Norway they have not tested the Saami isolated. That is a pity because the Norwegian Saami very likely reflects the old people of Scandinavia to a larger extent than the Saami of Finland and Sweden (with many newer Russian migrations). The Swedish Saami have 20% R1a / R1a1 and the Russian Saami have 21.7% according to Tambets et al. (2004). If there was small frequencies of haplogroup N among the Vikings is not known. I have found no studies that indicate a presence of y-chromosomal N in Viking graves. However I have not read all reports, do you know of any?

The concentrated European mtDNA in the oldest populations in present Scandinavia, in addition to the rare or non-existent mtDNA haplogroup-motifs found in Viking graves in Norway and Denmark again raise the question if the Asian (Buddhist) people came as seafarers. This might explain something, because the Goths then unlikely brought many women.

Khotans seems to have been of mixed origin, Greeks, Chinese, and Indian. Even if the Goths were of Khotan origin, some of them might have come from India as seafarers or via land migrations or a combination. The Khotans invaded India in the 2nd century CE. I will post some information about the Khotan later on.

___

i think you misunderstood the answer i gave to Jake, it was in response to his “blonde” map and his query to why there was such a high frequency of dark haired people in the north and i simply gave him an answer that it might be due to the N Y-DNA of the Saami population ect…

and now to answer your post, if R1a is responsible for the “darkness” then i would expect to see it at a higher frequency in eastern Norway rather then Western ect as R1a is much higher there…. also then we would see a cluster of this R1a with the same of the descendants of the Goths, perhaps they could be found in certain parts of Europe? but then we would also have to exclude the Viking spread of R1a…

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 12:35 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 29 2008, 01:07 PM) *
i think you misunderstood the answer i gave to Jake, it was in response to his “blonde” map and his query to why there was such a high frequency of dark haired people in the north and i simply gave him an answer that it might be due to the N Y-DNA of the Saami population ect…

and now to answer your post, if R1a is responsible for the “darkness” then i would expect to see it at a higher frequency in eastern Norway rather then Western ect as R1a is much higher there…. also then we would see a cluster of this R1a with the same of the descendants of the Goths, perhaps they could be found in certain parts of Europe? but then we would also have to exclude the Viking spread of R1a…

Evon, that is ok. Then we repeated some findings. I do not correlate haplogroup R1a / R1a1 with “dark hair, skin or eyes”. Physical features are only meant as a suggestion. To believe that men with R1a or R1a1 are darker is the same as to believe that people are Saami if they have East Asian features, that is simply not true. There are actually other groups of people with a reasonable long history in the Nordic that have East Asian genes and whom are not Saami. However, people are mixed and it is a long time since people came from Asia with these migrations.

It is not correct to say that men here in the Nordic with R1a or R1a1 are Asian, but the origin of their genes might be Asian. The same is true for R1b and additionally for men from Finland, they have extreme high percentages of Eastern Asian genes (haplogroup N). However men with haplogroup N in Finland are not from East Asia. It is a long time since a fraction of their ancestors migrated to the Nordic.

Lets make it clear – once and for all – this is a discussion about the origin of haplogroups, not about living people, but genetic and cultural ancestors far back in time.

Eugenics was a quasi-science made such correlations of features such as eye, skin, hair, nose form, skull form and stature etc. and generalized it to group averages. All of that resulted in crude simplifications and racism. Eugenics overlooked variations within groups. There are good reasons why such approaches are called “quasi-sciences” and cannot be considered more than that. Referring to haplogroups is not racist, because it is only a small fraction of our genes that is reflected in them. That is why white men can have Sub-Saharan African haplogroups and vice versa. However the probability for being East Asian looking is higher if you have a haplogroup with origin in East Asia. Please do not make this a dicussion about looks. Eugenics is not very interesting.

—-

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DMXX

post Oct 29 2008, 12:49 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 29 2008, 08:28 AM) *
DMXX, thanks for the comment. Hopefully some resourceful people can dig deeper into these topics. India, China, Central Asia and Iran are very exciting to learn more about, for a novice this is complex learning. Genes are only parts of the informational puzzle e.g. language, history, archaeology, and mythology etc. must be considered.

My comments on Persia will have to wait, however I understand your concerns.

About the map you added:
It is too simplifying to divide people into categories as for instance the map with hair color. Remembering how diverse hair, skin and eye colour etc. is only in my closest family. We have it all. Some have tried to average features as eye, skin, hair, nose form and stature etc. on a group levels and it resulted in crude simplifications and racism. Eugenics overlooked variations within groups. There are good reasons why such approaches are called “quasi-sciences” and cannot be considered more than that.

With haplogroups you can discuss origin, without discussing physical features or race, haplogroups reflects only a small fraction of our genes.

Why are there ignorance of facts and for some parts of our history, circular explanations and a general lack of curiosity and discussions? Why don’t keep an open mind, instead of protecting and continuing old prejudices?

See next posting….

:)Peace

I only brought that map up once I saw hair colour was being mentioned, here. I think you’re reading a little too deeply into my reasons for posting that map, to be frank. Never did I mention that all blonde people are somehow related. The point which I was making, which you seem to have overlooked, is that the very “dark” people who supposedly entered deeper into Scandinavia might’ve simply been Scandinavians that lived on the fringes of the landmass, and didn’t have the gene for blonde hair enter their communities, for whatever reason. By posting a map there, showing how a random chunk of modern-day northern Scandinavia doesn’t seem to have as high a frequency of blonde hair, I was weighing up that possibility. I don’t know where this talk of dividing people came from; like I stated in my previous post, blonde hair spread from a single point via diffusion, as that image indicates. That was the only point I was trying to make.

I find it somewhat ironic that your interpretation of my words is in the same line of context as some of your previous posts. What’s all this talk of “Gothic looking” people, if autosomal DNA has no relevance here? If you were going by ancient texts have described, remember that there’s an element of exaggeration, almost always. Herodotus, for example, stated that King Xerxes’ army “numbered in the millions”, when the real figure is believed to be substantially lower. The ginger hair of the Tocharians in various Chinese murals also exaggerates the degree of red hair amongst them, as the differences were relative to the ethnic Han Chinese, rather than arbitrary.

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 01:01 PM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 29 2008, 01:49 PM) *
I only brought that map up once I saw hair colour was being mentioned, here. I think you’re reading a little too deeply into my reasons for posting that map, to be frank. Never did I mention that all blonde people are somehow related. The point which I was making, which you seem to have overlooked, is that the very “dark” people who supposedly entered deeper into Scandinavia might’ve simply been Scandinavians that lived on the fringes of the landmass, and didn’t have the gene for blonde hair enter their communities, for whatever reason. By posting a map there, showing how a random chunk of modern-day northern Scandinavia doesn’t seem to have as high a frequency of blonde hair, I was weighing up that possibility. I don’t know where this talk of dividing people came from; like I stated in my previous post, blonde hair spread from a single point via diffusion, as that image indicates. That was the only point I was trying to make.

I find it somewhat ironic that your interpretation of my words is in the same line of context as some of your previous posts. What’s all this talk of “Gothic looking” people, if autosomal DNA has no relevance here? If you were going by ancient texts have described, remember that there’s an element of exaggeration, almost always. Herodotus, for example, stated that King Xerxes’ army “numbered in the millions”, when the real figure is believed to be substantially lower. The ginger hair of the Tocharians in various Chinese murals also exaggerates the degree of red hair amongst them, as the differences were relative to the ethnic Han Chinese, rather than arbitrary.

Read the posting over, the one meant for Evon.

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DMXX

post Oct 29 2008, 01:17 PM

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One of the best ways we can discover more about the past, is by looking deeper into the present. I only entered this discussion when I saw the most poorly-researched region in Eurasia being mentioned as a possible migration route; Iran. Before that, I was just picking up knowledge on things I really don’t know about.

You can’t focus specifically on one aspect of a past population, without considering the realities of the present. Autosomal DNA means jack-sh*t when it comes to migration routes, I think we’re all perfectly aware of that. We don’t need to look far to see incredible diversity within our own families to pay homage to that fact.

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 29 2008, 02:17 PM) *
One of the best ways we can discover more about the past, is by looking deeper into the present. I only entered this discussion when I saw the most poorly-researched region in Eurasia being mentioned as a possible migration route; Iran. Before that, I was just picking up knowledge on things I really don’t know about.

You can’t focus specifically on one aspect of a past population, without considering the realities of the present. Autosomal DNA means jack-sh*t when it comes to migration routes, I think we’re all perfectly aware of that. We don’t need to look far to see incredible diversity within our own families to pay homage to that fact.

Yes I agree DMXX, Iran or to be more correct in regard to this topic – Persia – is very interesting. May be even in relation to the Vikings and Buddhism. It seems that Parasar knows about Persia. I am reading about the Khotan right now, trying to learn about a culture and people I had hardly heard about previously. The present is of course essential, but it is seldom a constructive approach to debate physical feature issues.

______

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evon

post Oct 29 2008, 02:07 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 29 2008, 01:35 PM) *
Evon, that is ok. Then we repeated some findings. I do not correlate haplogroup R1a / R1a1 with “dark hair, skin or eyes”. Physical features are only meant as a suggestion. To believe that men with R1a or R1a1 is darker is the same as to believe that people are Saami if they have East Asian features, that is simply not true. There are actually other groups of people with a reasonable long history in the Nordic that have East Asian genes and that are not Saami. However, people are mixed and it is a long time since people came from Asia with these migrations.

It is not correct to say that men here in the Nordic with R1a or R1a1 are Asian, but the origin of their genes might be Asian. The same is true for R1b and additionally for men from Finland, they have extreme high percentages of Eastern Asian genes (haplogroup N). However men with haplogroup N in Finland are not from East Asia. It is a long time since they migrated to the Nordic.

Lets make it clear – once and for all – this is a discussion about the origin of haplogroups, not about living people, but genetic and cultural ancestors far back in time.

Eugenics was a quasi-science made such correlations of features such as eye, skin, hair, nose form, skull form and stature etc. and generalized it to group averages. All of that resulted in crude simplifications and racism. Eugenics overlooked variations within groups. There are good reasons why such approaches are called “quasi-sciences” and cannot be considered more than that. Referring to haplogroups is not racist, because it is only a small fraction of our genes that is reflected in them. That is why white men can have Sub-Saharan African haplogroups and vice versa. However the probability for being East Asian looking is higher if you have a haplogroup with origin in East Asia. Please do not make this a dicussion about looks. Eugenics is not very interesting.

—-

its all been one misunderstanding after another, i totally agree, of course the N Y-DNA is not as a result of modern immigration ect, it must have happened ages ago, for my believing in the N as being a factor in the Saami “physical features”, that is just my theory and my experience of Saami people first hand, some have features that we in the west would associate with Oriental peoples such as Mongols, Koreans ect…i think it is simply too easy to misunderstand here and people always think that these associations i attribute to N as being negative, which i do not think they are in anyway.. also i am not the one who started this “Physical Features” discussion.

so lets get something straight, i think N has brought with it some features that are found at higher frequency then any of the other Scandinavian populations with perhaps the exceptions of some Fins who also seem to have “this” look about them..but this N has nothing to do with Buddhism or thing such as this as if N came to Sampi (Saami homeland) it would have been along time ago, much to old for Buddhism..

and for the R1a, well since i do not much about it really cant say…i can just make an educated guess…

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Jake

post Oct 29 2008, 03:36 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 29 2008, 05:07 AM) *
i think you misunderstood the answer i gave to Jake, it was in response to his “blonde” map and his query to why there was such a high frequency of dark haired people in the north and i simply gave him an answer that it might be due to the N Y-DNA of the Saami population ect…


I never posted any “blonde” map. Please take care not to misattribute a post to a forum participant who has nothing to do with it.

However, I do hope that you will realize that the only portion of that map that has shown a low (1%-19%) frequency of blonde hair in what could be mistaken to be part of “Scandinavia” is the Kola Peninsula of Russia, whose Saami population has been found to have substantial frequencies of haplogroups E and J. Why should you strive to attribute your perception of Saami in Norway (I assume that is where you are gathering your personal experience, since you seem to be a Norwegian) as having “dark features” to the presence of haplogroup N1c Y-DNA in their population, when haplogroup N1c attains its highest frequencies precisely where blonde hair is also most common (the circum-Baltic region)? You need to be more logical, and less prejudiced.

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parasar

post Oct 29 2008, 03:46 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 29 2008, 04:50 AM) *
BUDDHIST (?) PRACTICES IN SCANDINAVIA
That there have been practises similar to Buddhism in Scandinavia is supported in a book called ” The Ceremonies and Religious Customs of the Various Nations” (1725), the illustrations actually show how they are offering to a statue with crowned head and amulet on chest, holding a stick (Vajra?). Picart illustrated Buddha in similar ways for instance in India and Ceylon, see pictures in added site.

It seems like there is need to look into Iron Age history in Scandinavia (Norway and Sweden) to understand what happened with the “Buddhist” Vikings that always have been described as Pagan. There is something is clearly missing in our story here. There are good reasons to question the pagan-descriptions of the Vikings. I doubt the correctness of Snorre when it comes to offering humans, to my knowledge that kind of offerings do not excist within Buddhist practises. Telling such awful stories might have been part of a pro-Christian campaign, in the same way as we later see with for instance Picart.

According to Wikipedia-sources it is told that many farms were built between 300-600 CE in the southern and western areas of Norway. That fits well with the “Buddhist” Vikings that seem to have brought new agricultural technologies here. However this article tells that something seems to have happened, because these farms were left during 600 CE. During 700eds a new agricultural expansion starts in the same areas. With and increase in the number of inhabitants in south, mid and northern Norway. http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jernalderen_i_Norge

Is the timing of new immigrations to Norway twisted, in the same way as the truth about religious practices?

My Question is: Then why does the Timbered halls (Stavkirke) have Stupa-temple similar constructions and clearly Asian ornaments that fits well with the Viking symbolism from about 400 CE?

What has actually happened? (I do not have an answer but there must be some historical deceptions around).

The Norse mythologies were written by Snorre, the politician, after new populations had settled in. Snorre died in 1240 CE. Were these myths partly constructed political tools rather than fairly reflecting an old history tradition? Did the camouflaging of Buddhism in the Nordic start with Snorre? Mythology has been a known and powerful political tool for a long time.

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From what I have read about Snorri is that he wanted to keep the ancient sagas alive as by his time aspects of the old culture Asa culture were already dying out.
Buddhism is a modern term – in ancient times the term was Buddha’s law. If you note Odin is also referred to as a law-giver, eg. Odin made it a law that all dead men should be burnt with their ornaments.

The deity with the stick (if not a coincidence) may potentially be some form of a Lakulisa.
A lakulis is a stick – seen in early CE Kushan architecture – it is a Buddha-Shiva blend, where the Kushana Buddha/Shiva is the ruler.

Some Kushan coins have a Lakulisa form: http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng/079/image00532.jpg

My analysis on the date of Lakulisa:

Chandra’s Mathura Pillar Inscription, circa 380 AD mentions a Guruvayatana was established by Arya Uditacarya, who was fourth in descent from a Pasupata Bhagavan Parasara, who himself was sixth in descent from a Bhagavan Kusika. Kushika is mentioned in Puranas as one of the four disciples of Lakulisa.

Going backwards we get the following approximate dates at 25 years per generation for the timeline of these personages:

Udidyacarya – 380AD – Gupta Period, Chandra

Parasara – 280AD – End of Bharasiva Period

Kusika – 130AD – Just prior to Bharasiva Period

Lakulisa – 100-130AD – Kusana Period

This puts Lakulisa in the timeframe of the Kushana Shiva.

Other forms are seen at:
Siva Linga, Gudimallam, Parasuramesvara Temple, this figure may be as old as 200bc (http://asi.nic.in/asi_museums_chandragiri.asp), though I am not sure if the deity itself is not of a later period than the temple.

I am not exactly sure how the ASI got its date for the deity itself, but if it is correct it buries my Kusana/Siva timeline:

“archaeological excavations were undertaken in the sanctum of the Parasuramesvara temple that have provided an unbroken sequence of the temple’s long history (Sarma 1994). The beginnings of the Siva temple date to 2nd century BC when the stone Siva linga with an image of Siva standing on a yaksa was enshrined within a square stone railing of 1.35 m length on each side in the hypaethral shrine. The presence of cut bones of domestic sheep perhaps indicates animal sacrifice (Indian Archaeology – A Review 1973-74: 1-2). In Phase II dating from the 1st to 3rd centuries AD an apsidal brick temple was raised around the Siva linga … Inscriptions dating from AD 845 to 989 record gifts made by individuals to god Parasuramesvara. In the past, scholars such as Krishna Murthy had referred to the shrine as a Buddhist caitya on the basis of the apsidal form and the stone railing, which was subsequently converted into a Hindu temple (1983: 66), but this is clearly refuted by the results of the excavations. Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies – 17th November 2005 – Dr. Himanshu Prabha Ray JNU (unauthorized quote).

Lakulisa at Bhubanesvar – sitting pose but holding a staff.
Lakulisa at Bhuvanesvar holding a staff with his four disciples.
Some info is here:
http://www.indiainfoweb.com/orissa/bhubane…t-heritage.html

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post Oct 29 2008, 03:55 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 29 2008, 07:07 AM) *
so lets get something straight, i think N has brought with it some features that are found at higher frequency then any of the other Scandinavian populations with perhaps the exceptions of some Fins who also seem to have “this” look about them..but this N has nothing to do with Buddhism or thing such as this as if N came to Sampi (Saami homeland) it would have been along time ago, much to old for Buddhism..


Haplogroup N1c Y-DNA is as common among Lithuanians and Latvians as it is among Saami. Are you going to assert that Balts have “darker features” and “features that we in the west would associate with Oriental peoples” (these are your words) because of their high frequencies of haplogroup N1c Y-DNA?

Your argument was a failure from the start, because haplogroup N1c is not found with significant frequency in East Asia. Therefore, you cannot claim that the Saami are this or that way because “they have East Asian Y-DNA,” since they have no Y-DNA that is found at significantly higher frequency in East Asia than in Northern Europe, where the Saami actually reside. If you should be allowed to claim that haplogroup N1c Y-DNA is East Asian, then I should be able to claim on equal grounds that your haplogroup R1b Y-DNA is Native American. Please don’t make me explain why this is the case. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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post Oct 29 2008, 03:59 PM

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 29 2008, 04:36 PM) *
….N1c Y-DNA in their population, when haplogroup N1c attains its highest frequencies precisely where blonde hair is also most common (the circum-Baltic region….


Technically speaking the Yakuts have the highest measured frequency of Tat-c, as far as I know. I think the frequency is statistically significantly higher than the Baltic region (but I’d have to check).

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post Oct 29 2008, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE (Paul_Johnsen @ Oct 29 2008, 08:59 AM) *
Technically speaking the Yakuts have the highest measured frequency of Tat-c, as far as I know. I think the frequency is statistically significantly higher than the Baltic region (but I’d have to check).


I can assure you that the frequency of haplogroup N1c in Siberia, on average, is much lower than the frequency of haplogroup N1c in the Baltic region.

As for the exception of the Yakuts, please refer to my post in the haplogroup N forum; the Yakuts have a very low haplotype diversity within haplogroup N1c, they do not share their cluster of haplogroup N1c with their linguistic relatives (the other Siberian Turkic-speaking peoples), and their linguistic relatives have rather low frequencies of haplogroup N1c. The data all suggest that the genetic history of the Yakuts has been marked by a recent and overwhelmingly strong founder effect.

Furthermore, the Yakuts are irrelevant to the dispute between me and evon, because the Yakuts do not inhabit East Asia; thus, they are not “East Asian,” and cannot be used to support evon’s claim that “darker features” in some Saami are due to their having “East Asian Y-DNA.”

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post Oct 29 2008, 06:09 PM

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 29 2008, 05:06 PM) *
I can assure you that the frequency of haplogroup N1c in Siberia, on average, is much lower than the frequency of haplogroup N1c in the Baltic region.

As for the exception of the Yakuts, please refer to my post in the haplogroup N forum; the Yakuts have a very low haplotype diversity within haplogroup N1c, they do not share their cluster of haplogroup N1c with their linguistic relatives (the other Siberian Turkic-speaking peoples), and their linguistic relatives have rather low frequencies of haplogroup N1c. The data all suggest that the genetic history of the Yakuts has been marked by a recent and overwhelmingly strong founder effect.

Furthermore, the Yakuts are irrelevant to the dispute between me and evon, because the Yakuts do not inhabit East Asia; thus, they are not “East Asian,” and cannot be used to support evon’s claim that “darker features” in some Saami are due to their having “East Asian Y-DNA.”


I haven’t tried to calculate the frequency of N1c in Siberia, but I would imagine that it would be pretty hard seeing how large the area is (It would be about the same size as Europe). I agree that the Yakuts show a sign of a “recent and overwhelmingly strong founder effect”. The diversity is very very low and all have “off-ancestral” high values on DYS 392. I am aware that this technically isn’t in East Asia. I haven’t studied East Asian Ydna very well,but there doesn’t seem to be much Tat-c there. I think I remember some paper showing Tat-C in Japan, but I could be mistaken (or more likely:the paper could be “mistaken”).

As for Tat-C in Saami; it is clearly mostly the result of Finns. Most Saami appear to be in the Finnish cluster of N1c (who IMO also seem to be marked by a recent and overwhelmingly strong founder effect; although not as recently as the Yakuts).

I generally don’t believe that any physical “unique” features of Saami are related to any of their Y-dna haplogroups, as all of them seems to have been introduced quite recently in the Saami.

My point was that your statement was wrong, and I stick by that. N1c has been measured in higher frequency in places other than the Baltic.

It is very likely that you are correct when you claim: Siberia as a whole has lower frequency of N1c than the Baltics. However an equivalent geographic area to Siberia would be Europe, not just the Baltics.

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post Oct 29 2008, 06:18 PM

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I should also note that mtdna V has been found in India.

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post Oct 29 2008, 06:25 PM

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QUOTE (Paul_Johnsen @ Oct 29 2008, 07:18 PM) *
I should also note that mtdna V has been found in India.

That is interesting Paul Johnsen, do you have the name of the study and eventually the URL?

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post Oct 29 2008, 06:37 PM

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QUOTE (Paul_Johnsen @ Oct 29 2008, 11:09 AM) *
My point was that your statement was wrong, and I stick by that. N1c has been measured in higher frequency in places other than the Baltic.

It is very likely that you are correct when you claim: Siberia as a whole has lower frequency of N1c than the Baltics. However an equivalent geographic area to Siberia would be Europe, not just the Baltics.


My statement was not wrong; my point was that haplogroup N1c is most common and diverse in the Baltic region, which is precisely where the center of the blondism cline lies. There is nothing incorrect about my claim. Furthermore, in my reply to your previous post, I explicitly specified that the Yakuts are an exception, and cannot be used to negate the fact that there is a much greater STR diversity and absolute number of haplogroup N1c individuals in the Baltic region than in indigenous peoples of Siberia. You would know exactly what I meant if you had read my post in the haplogroup N subforum, as I had asked you to do.

This attempt of yours to divert the discussion into a broader Europe vs. Siberia comparison is really irrelevant to my refutation of evon’s claim. I have only stated the fact that the region where blonde hair and haplogroup N1c Y-DNA both occur most commonly is the Baltic region. As for the Yakuts, they are a rather atypical population that is believed, based on linguistic and anthropological evidence, to have migrated to their present area of residence fairly recently; they do not constitute a “region” comparable to the “Baltic region” that I have mentioned in my previous statement. Your suggestion that we should consider the Yakuts as being of utmost significance and negating all available data on other populations of the greater Siberian region is like claiming that the Romani people in Europe are very significant in regard to the genetic prehistory of their present region of residence. Next, we’ll have someone claiming that Europe is the region where haplogroup H-M69 reaches its highest frequency. That is just incredibly silly, and it illustrates why it is important not to give too much weight to the frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroups in small populations of recent arrival to their present areas of inhabitation. In contrast to Siberia, where the Yakuts are the only population that definitely has a very high frequency of haplogroup N1c, all the populations (i.e. the general, or majority, populations, not just some small, linguistically and culturally homogeneous outlier group that has experienced a recent founder effect) of the eastern shores of the Baltic (Finns, Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians) have very high frequencies of haplogroup N1c. I hope no one will try to tell me that these populations of the Baltic region all share a recent common ethnic root, that their history in their current territories is short, or that they are linguistically homogeneous.

Furthermore, as pointed out by DMXX, the cline of blondism is centered in Finland and Sweden, i.e. the northern shores of the Baltic Sea (or perhaps this might be called the Bothnian region). Is there any other region besides this part of Northern Europe around the Baltic Sea in which blonde hair occurs in such a high percentage of the population? No (with the possible exception of some groups of Australian aborigines, but their form of blondism is somewhat different, I believe, and does not necessarily have the same genetic cause). Is there any other region besides this part of Northern Europe in which haplogroup N1c Y-DNA occurs with such high frequency and diversity? No. At the very least, this is enough to cast serious doubt on evon’s hypothesis of “darker features” being introduced by invaders bearing “East Asian Y-DNA” (even without considering the fact, which I have already pointed out, that haplogroup N1c cannot be called “East Asian”), and this was my original contention.

Now, the reason why I say the Yakuts are the only population of Siberia that “definitely” has a high frequency of N1c is because there have been some samples of some Siberian populations (Khanti and Chukchi are two that come to mind) that have exhibited rather high frequencies of N1c, yet other samples of these same populations have not exhibited such a high frequency of this haplogroup, and because of the very small sizes of these populations, one should not underestimate the possibility of recent founder effects and genetic drift.

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post Oct 29 2008, 06:41 PM

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 29 2008, 04:36 PM) *
I never posted any “blonde” map. Please take care not to misattribute a post to a forum participant who has nothing to do with it.

However, I do hope that you will realize that the only portion of that map that has shown a low (1%-19%) frequency of blonde hair in what could be mistaken to be part of “Scandinavia” is the Kola Peninsula of Russia, whose Saami population has been found to have substantial frequencies of haplogroups E and J. Why should you strive to attribute your perception of Saami in Norway (I assume that is where you are gathering your personal experience, since you seem to be a Norwegian) as having “dark features” to the presence of haplogroup N1c Y-DNA in their population, when haplogroup N1c attains its highest frequencies precisely where blonde hair is also most common (the circum-Baltic region)? You need to be more logical, and less prejudiced.

first of all i want to apologize Petrina for making this thread into a discussion on “Physical features” rather then what this thread is all about…

and right you are, it seems i mistook you for DMXX on that one..

i have now opened another thread for this purpose so we can lead this subject away from this thread…

For those who like to argue about this stuff..

Posted in Curiosities. Tags: , , , , , . Comments Off on Norwegian Stavekirke and Thailand temple: geneticists’ forum thread about Buddhaism in Norway #2

Norwegian Stavkirke vs. Thai temple: Geneticists talk about the Norwegian Buddhist connection

Thread #1: Geneticists talk about the Norwegian Buddhist connection-saved thread from October 2008

Connections between stavekirke in Norway and Thai temples post from Nov 2008.  The similarities between these two types of buildings are striking, yet the cultures seem too far apart to be related. This thread on a related subject is from a closed discussion forum and appeared in google cache.

https://camelsnose.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/the-buddhist-connection-to-norway/

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post Oct 26 2008, 01:33 AM

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QUOTE (goldenhind @ Oct 24 2008, 01:05 AM) *
Similarities between the Old Norse language and Sanskrit are probably a result of their shared Indo-European origin. Similarities in religion and culture may also be due to this fact.
Georges Dumezil compared ancient Indian, Old Scandinavian and Celtic culture and religion in his famour work Gods of the Ancient Northmen. A google search will tell you much about him.


Yes of course it might be, however what I am trying to say by posting this is that these old language studies alone have not necessarily led anyone in the right direction.

Population genetics seems to tell us a different story.

Georges Dumezil led me to Bruce Lincoln. Thank you!

Bruce Lincoln has written an article “Rewriting the German War God: Georges Dumézil, politics and scholarship in the late 1930s” and an article of Stefanie von Schnurbein: “The function of Loki in Snorri Stuluson’s Edda”.

What is so interesting is that names in Norse Mythology of the Gods and the different groups of people are so directly related to Indian Mythology and Sanskrit. To my knowledge more directly than elsewhere in Europen mythology.

An example Loke (also called Loki) in Norse and in Indian Mytology (the site have several parallels Norse – India).
“Loke acts as a mischief, making spy in Germanic myth, and Dadyak in Indian, and both lose their heads for wagers, but save them by cunning” (End of quote) http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml06.htm#page_12

Indra’s thunderbolt: “similarly the Teutonic elfin artisan Sindre makes Thor’s hammer
Here is an old carving of Indra with Vajra” (End of quote)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml06.htm#page_12

If you take a look down the site you can see that both Zeus and thunderbolt, Sicily, c. 355 B.C. and Greek Thunderbolt, 40 B.C is similar to those of Indra. http://www.sundial.thai-isan-lao.com/sundi…literature.html

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/Thorshammerswedenland-1.jpg)

The Scandinavian Thunderbolt has developed over time, however as late as early 1500 the thunder God Thor of the Goths / Geats were illustrated as following by the Swedish bishop Olaus Magnus.

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/Olaus_Magnus_-1500eds_Main_Gods_-1.jpg)

The old engraving shows that Thors hammer have been illustrated differently earlier, does this mean that some original versions of the hammer were
alike the Buddhist or Hindi Vajra.
“Vajra” is a Sanskrit word meaning both thunderbolt and diamond. In Tibet “dorje”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra

Mythology is only suggestive, and findings must be studied without relying too much on old interpretations. Language studies are only a part of the approach and the India / Asia – Scandinavia connections are not only related to language-similarities, also to mythology, ornaments, religious symbols, and population genetics. If you read the text in the posting over you will see why it seems like the eastern migrations to Scandinavia before the Viking Period likely is different from the pre-Celt and Celt cultures elsewhere in Europe.

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post Oct 26 2008, 03:09 AM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 23 2008, 05:30 PM) *
hi,

sadly i have not been able to find Gro mandts works online and i have yet to see any in English..but if you like i could supply you with her e-mail address and you could then ask her yourself?

also, from what i have read about the woman found in Viking graves, she was said to have their origin near the Caucasus/Iran area and not as far as India. Article

i do not have too much knowledge about the old religions of Norway ect…but i am sure there could well have been Buddhist there, but they would be no match for the more aggressive Germanic Mythology..Norwegians have throught the years always had a very relaxed attitude to religion and so it might simply have died out… i have recently read something about Christianity arriving at Norway at a much earlier date then previous though, but it seems that this early Christianity might have died out in the western fjords before the main wave came…maybe its the same with other religions?

i came across this while searching for something else by the way, i did not read all of it, but you might find it interesting:

Religion in Viking Age

another discussion about the subject of buddhas in Viking graves…

well i hope this helps a bit…

Hi and thank you for the URL’s. In a posting previous today, there is a comment on the svastika from the sources available. Yes, you are right- there is a relatively high percentage of mtDNA U7 in Kurdish Iran. This is not unexpected because there must have been migrations of people from India to the Persian Gulf and from there via land routes. Ancient Persians traded with India for thousands of years, at least since the Harappa period.

Even if mtDNA U7 is present in Kurdish Iran, other studies suggest that that U7 is of Palaeolithic origin in India, where the frequency U7 is highest in western India and Pakistan.

Why have we not heard about Buddhism here? (I will keep asking this question until there are some reasonable answers).

With so many obvious parallels between Buddhism and Old Norse religion it should have been interesting to look into a long time ago.
Parallels between the Old Norse and Buddhism have never been discussed in any of the books I have read. The Buddha from Sweden is commented in a previous posting.

You told that there was a major change of culture in the western fjords of Norway from about 400 AD:

Did your sources tell if that the change in culture in the western fjords was because of foreign people migrating in or because of migrating people from further south in Scandinavia where the Viking culture already had developed?

I have heard that there are some gothic-looking people in western Norway.

If there are written sources of earlier Christening of Norway than St. Olav (Olav den Hellige), why are these sources silenced / not discussed?

Is the Norse Saga as historical source believed to be more reliable than the stories of K. Arthur and his conquests of the Northern regions? I do not think that they are.

“Traditional Viking beliefs told that the Vanir were new-comers from the south who fought a war with the Aesir until a settlement was reached. It is unclear where this belief sprang from, and at what date. It is interesting to note however, that during the Age of Migration towards the end of the Roman Empire there was widespread migration both to and from Scandinavia. The immigrants included tribes of Gothic origin, whose ancestral homelands had been far to the south around the Black Sea. The beliefs surrounding the war between the Aesir and the Vanir may reflect the arrival of the outsiders with their own gods, and the eventual accommodation between the original inhabitants of Scandinavia and the new-comers, with the integration of their religious systems….” End of quote from the source you added http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Cwmnf…;cd=7&gl=uk

I do agree with the author that the that Gothic tribes likely were the people that came here, bringing haplogroups like y-chromosomal R1a and Q and mtDNA e.g. U7 and certain motifs of H. The question is from where and how they came. The people that migrated here were not “blank slates” (Tabula Rasa) therefore they must have left some of these Buddhist symbolism and ornaments along the path. Buddhist symbols and deep Asian connections do not simply develop isolated in Scandinavia just like that.

Since it seems almost impossible for many Norwegians and European to identify with far-away-places let me take a closer approach:

1) Did the new migrating groups come via Caucasus to the Black Sea before they migrated to Scandinavia?
2) Could they have migrated via the Central Asian steppes to Scandinavia?
3) Or could they have been seafaring people?

The last option will leave few traces along the route. The other two will and Buddhist symbols are very likely the connecting tread in this search since there are so many parallels with Buddhism and Viking ornaments. So many that these are not coincidental.

E.g. there was clearly some forms of Buddhism on the Central Asian steppes before the Viking Age: Are there then parallels in the use of symbols, ornaments, mythology and other cultural expression in Central Asian Buddhism before the Viking Age? The same questions for Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea areas.

Do archaeological findings fit the population genetic data between the areas studied (e.g. populations in present Scandinavia & Northern Europe, and Remains from Viking Age mounds compared to particular populations in Central Asia or Caucasus)?

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 25 2008, 11:35 PM) *
As I see it the Norwegian stavkirke has a close resemblance with dragon-style-temples for instance in Han Dynasty China. Do you know if there are any such ancient wood temples in India and eventually where?

You may get more information if you read the book “Norway – a piece of world history”, there it is mentioned even a painting of an asian/chinese in one Stavkirke. The authors explain this by the time’s admiration of the asians and their civilization far more advanced than the current norse.

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 26 2008, 04:09 AM) *
Hi and thank you for the URL’s. In a posting previous today, there is a comment on the svastika from the sources available. Yes, you are right- there is a relatively high percentage of mtDNA U7 in Kurdish Iran. This is not unexpected because there very likely have been migrations of people from India to the Persian Gulf and from there via land routes. The ancient Persians traded with India for thousands of years, at least since the Harappa period.

Even if mtDNA U7 is present in Kurdish Iran, other studies suggest that that U7 is of Palaeolithic origin in India, where the frequency U7 is highest in western India and Pakistan.

Why have we not heard about Buddhism here? (I will keep asking this question until there are some reasonable answers).

With so many obvious parallels between Buddhism and Old Norse religion it should have been interesting to look into a long time ago.
Parallels between the Old Norse and Buddhism have never been discussed in any of the books I have read. The Buddha from Sweden is commented in a previous posting.

You told that there was a major change of culture in the western fjords of Norway from about 400 AD:

Did your sources tell if that the change in culture in the western fjords was because of foreign people migrating in or because of migrating people further south in Scandinavia where the Viking culture already had developed?

I have heard that there are some gothic-looking people in western Norway.

If there are written sources of earlier christening of Norway than St. Olav (Olav den Hellige), why are these silenced / not discussed?

Is the Norse Saga as historical source believed to be more reliable than the stories of K. Arthur and his conquests of the Northern regions? I do not think that they are.

“Traditional Viking beliefs told that the Vanir were new-comers from the south who fought a war with the Aesir until a settlement was reached. It is unclear where this belief sprang from, and at what date. It is interesting to note however, that during the Age of Migration towards the end of the Roman Empire there was widespread migration both to and from Scandinavia. The immigrants included tribes of Gothic origin, whose ancestral homelands had been far to the south around the Black Sea. The beliefs surrounding the war between the Aesir and the Vanir may reflect the arrival of the outsiders with their own gods, and the eventual accommodation between the original inhabitants of Scandinavia and the new-comers, with the integration of their religious systems….” End of quote from the source you added http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Cwmnf…;cd=7&gl=uk

I do agree with the author that the that Gothic tribes likely were the people that came here, bringing haplogroups like y-chromosomal R1a and Q and mtDNA e.g. U7 and certain motifs of H. The question is from where and how they came. Since it seems almost impossible for many Norwegians and European to identify with far away places let me take a closer approach:

1) Did the new migrating groups come via Caucasus to the Black Sea before they migrated to Scandinavia?
2) Could they have migrated via the Central Asian steppes to Scandinavia?
3) Or could they have been seafaring people?

The last option will leave few traces along the route. The other two will and Buddhist symbols are very likely the connecting tread in this search since there are so many parallels with Buddhism and Viking ornaments. So many that these are not coincidental.
E.g. there was clearly some forms of Buddhism on the Central Asian steppes before the Viking Age: Are there then parallels in the use of symbols, ornaments, mythology and other cultural expression in Central Asian Buddhism before the Viking Age? The same questions for Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea areas.

Do archaeological findings fit the population genetic data between the areas studied (e.g. populations in present Scandinavia & Northern Europe, and Remains from Viking Age mounds compared to particular populations in Central Asia or Caucasus)?

According to the paper i worked on these people who came with rune writing systems as well as Swastika symbols and so on came from east of the mountain plateau that separates Western Norway and Eastern Norway, or at least that is the theory Mandt puts forward. so that would place them in the areas that are today Eastern Norway and Western Sweden. she also talks about how they can not have come from South Western Norway as the natural barriers there would there stop them (glacier ect).. i also fits when we consider that older rune writings ect have been found in the eastern areas… we can say that the Native peoples who lived in Nordfjord was what we would call hunter gatherers and the new comers where farmers ect.. there is no mention of any difference in bone structure to indicate that new comers were not Nordic in their features…
also there was noted in the paper that the older population in nordfjord did have trade with cultures far from their own little world as well, so we cannot give the new comers all the glory here..

define Gothic looking? also Western Norway tend to have more Red and brown hair then eastern Norway, or atleast that is my impression, but this could be due to our close genetic ties with the Atlantic fringe..

about the Earlier Christianity:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article962826.ece

i cant find the original article which i some time ago read about this, but i might have written about it on this forum..but all i get is IPS error when i look for it…

i dont think its been such a hush hush subject in Norway, but i think there simply has not been much interest for it in the same fashion as other stuff also there are not that many researches working on these things…

and about the genetic make up of Norway with focus on Asia, well i dont know too much about this you would have to ask Paul Johnsen as i think he has been dabbling in atleast R1a ideas…

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post Oct 26 2008, 04:24 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 26 2008, 10:59 AM) *
According to the paper i worked on these people who came with rune writing systems as well as Swastika symbols and so on came from east of the mountain plateau that separates Western Norway and Eastern Norway, or at least that is the theory Mandt puts forward. so that would place them in the areas that are today Eastern Norway and Western Sweden. she also talks about how they can not have come from South Western Norway as the natural barriers there would there stop them (glacier ect).. i also fits when we consider that older rune writings ect have been found in the eastern areas… we can say that the Native peoples who lived in Nordfjord was what we would call hunter gatherers and the new comers where farmers ect.. there is no mention of any difference in bone structure to indicate that new comers were not Nordic in their features…
also there was noted in the paper that the older population in nordfjord did have trade with cultures far from their own little world as well, so we cannot give the new comers all the glory here..

define Gothic looking? also Western Norway tend to have more Red and brown hair then eastern Norway, or atleast that is my impression, but this could be due to our close genetic ties with the Atlantic fringe..

about the Earlier Christianity:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article962826.ece

i cant find the original article which i some time ago read about this, but i might have written about it on this forum..but all i get is IPS error when i look for it…

i dont think its been such a hush hush subject in Norway, but i think there simply has not been much interest for it in the same fashion as other stuff also there are not that many researches working on these things…

and about the genetic make up of Norway with focus on Asia, well i dont know too much about this you would have to ask Paul Johnsen as i think he has been dabbling in atleast R1a ideas…

Thanks for the article. Did they test the genes of the remains in the grave? Gothic, there was a guy that told about “darker” people in the place he live somewhere on the western coast of Norway. I did not ask what he meant with dark, but likely more pigmented skin and darker hair and eyes. He was from there and also told that they have a long history in Western Norway.

Oh I see, that sounds reasonable the theory about people in all of Norway being hunter, gatherers and fishermen (boat people) before the new migrations started before the Viking Age. Some sources tell that even in the southernmost parts, there were very few places where they farmed the land.

You might be right; I do not feel any need to defend Norwegian politicians and researchers back in time. However, to me it seems like there is a lot of hush – hush going on.

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post Oct 26 2008, 04:26 PM

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QUOTE (Njálla @ Oct 26 2008, 09:19 AM) *
You may get more information if you read the book “Norway – a piece of world history”, there it is mentioned even a painting of an asian/chinese in one Stavkirke. The authors explain this by the time’s admiration of the asians and their civilization far more advanced than the current norse.

Thanks for the reminder, I will read it … Stian Bromark og Dag Herbjørnsrud
”Norge – et lite stykke verdenshistorie”. I did not find a translated version.

The problem with the Chinese looking God in the Lom Stavkirke is that it is from 1608. http://www.capper-online.de/Travel/Norway/…0_Lom_Taufe.JPG

I do not know if this painting was restored after older original paintings belonging to this church, if so that would be utterly interesting in the perspective of this tread. Lom Stavkirke was built in the period 1170 –1200, and is then closely connected to the Viking Age.

It sounds weird to interpret the profound Asian influence only as a question of admiration of the Asian, as if there were no other connections to Asia here than mythology and artistic affiliation. We know better than that.

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post Oct 26 2008, 04:42 PM

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I believe that most R1a1 in Scandinavia (50-70% or so) come from one man who came to present-day Southern Sweden from the southern Baltic coast (in present day Germany/Poland). I used dr. Ken Nordtvedt’s utility an it gave an estimate of about 3,000 years for this group (very similar to Dr. Nordtvedt’s estimates for I1 in Scandinavia). Later one branch expanded greatly in particularly in Norway (about 2,000 years using the same utility). This branch is well correlated with the expansion of Norgesveldet, but its expansion date exceeds that of Norgesveldet by more than 800 years. I think this is because there was mass-movement of people.

I think it is very difficult to say anything about the cultural background of the man who likely lived 3,000. Possibly this wasn’t even an important man, even though he has many direct male living descendants today. There is really no reason to believe his other genes would have prospered as much as his Y-Chromosome. Even if he were totally “Asian” genetically speaking, this would likely rapidly have been water out by intermarriage with “locals”.

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post Oct 26 2008, 04:46 PM

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A timetable about the spread of Buddhism:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/timetable.htm

Relevant Periods in this context are:
1. Buddha’s lifetime, about 563 – 483 BCE
2. The Asoka Period about 304 – 232 BCE
3. The Kanishka Period 1st–3rd centuries. This was under Kushan rule of large parts of India and into China
Kanishka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanishka
Kushan Map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kushanmap.jpg

According this article Asoka sent missions to Kashmir and Gandhara, Mahisamandala (Mysore), Vanavasa (Northern Kanara),
Aparante (Gujerat and Kathiawar), Maharattha (Maharastra) , Yonaka desa (Greek States in North West India), Himavanta (Himalaya
Region), Suvannabhumi (Indo-China including Burma, Siam and Cambodia) and Tambapanni Dipa (Sri Lanka).

Ashoka also spread the Dhamma to Syria, Egypt, Macedonia, Cyrene, Epirus, Central Asia, Palestine and Alexandria.
The spread of Buddhism: http://www.buddhistview.com/site/epage/8069_225.htm

Asoka sent known missions as far as Macedonia.

King Asoka or Ashoka referred to himself as rājā māgadha. He had an administration in Taxila, present Paksitan in the west and
also in eastern India. Agricultural areas like Kalinga, Saurashtra and Raichur was also important areas for Asoka.

A Book:
Asoka, King of Magadha, fl. 259 B.C. India: History Maurya dynasty, ca. 322 B.C.-ca. 185 B.C
http://www.archive.org/details/asokaindia00macpuof t

Book about Buddhism and Hinduism http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16847/16847-0.txt

“Epic and History: Tradition, dissent and politics in India” by Romila Thapar, 1989
http://www.jstor.org/pss/650859

Magadha, South Bihar, located in Patna is an important location for Asoka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar

There is an ancient people in India called the GOTTE or Gond, Gondi and a Subgroup of them is called Asur. I have not checked
more about the Asur. Asur tribe in Bihar and Jharkhand.

Asur is an alternative name of the Gonds or Gondi according to this Joshua Project site. Many alternative names are given in the source.

This is likely a very generalized description of the Gond Tribe:

The Gonds are south Asian people that are considered indigenous in India.
They where once rulers in India and consider themselves to be a higher race. They have long traditions as agriculturists.
For dinner they make a certain palm liqueur. The Gonds tradition is to Sacrifice animals, very superstitious.
The information very generalized from the Joshua Project site, and of course such descriptions is overly simplified.

Read more here:
http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctry.php?…137&rog3=IN

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondi_people

Majority lives in Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra and Andhra. At the Satpura Plateau, where western type of Gondi language is spoken, and the district of Mandla.
Undergroups are Murias, the Hill Marias, and the so-called Bisonhorn Marias, all of whom speak Gondi dialects. I do not know if Gondi is considered a IE language.
Raj Gonds, they call themselves Koitur.

“The term Raj Gonds , which in the 1940s was still widely used, has now become almost obsolete, probably because of the political eclipse of the Gond rajas.
The rulers of Chanda, in present Maharashtra, were until 1749 powerful princes whose dominion included a large part of the Adilabad District of Andhra Pradesh.”
End of quote from http://www.escholarship.org/editions/view?…;doc.view=print

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/GreatstupaatSanchiIndiabyGraldAnfos.jpg)
Great stupa at Sanchi India by Gérald Anfossi, 2003 Wikimedia Creative share

THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF INDIA
BUDDHIST HINDU JAIN by BENJAMIN ROWLAND (1953)
“No pre-Aśokan stupas have been discovered, and there is no mention of veneration paid to relic-mounds in Buddhist literature before the Maurya Period.”
(Benjamin Rowland, 1953). Have there been found any since this book was written in 1953?

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/SanchiStupatheEastgate72-25BCE.jpg)
Sanchi Stupa the East gate 72-25 BCE

Major historical periods in India with approximate timing:
Stone age 70000 – 3300 BCE
Mehrgarh Culture 7000 – 3300 BCE
Indus Valley – Harappan 3300 – 1700 BCE
Indus Valley – Late Harappan 1700–1300 BCE
Iron Age 1200 – 300 BCE
Vedic Civilization Period (1500 – 800 BCE)
Maha Janapadas 700–300 BCE
Pre – Maurya Civilization: Saisunaga Nanda Period (642 – 322 BCE):
Magadha Empire 550- 545 BCE
Maurya Empire India united from the Khyber to the Decca (322 – 185 BCE).
Asoka Raja, the earliest and most renowned imperial patron of Buddhism in Asia (272-232 BCE).
Middle Kingdoms 300 BCE–1279 CE
Chera Empire 300 BCE–200 CE
Chola Empire 250 BCE–1070 CE:
Satavahana 230 BCE–220 CE
The Sunga Period (185-72 BCE).
Kushan Empire 0–240 CE
Early Andhra Period (72-25 BCE)
Gupta Empire 280 – 550 CE

Classical Sinhala Paintings from about 600 AD Ceylon, give us a rough idea about what kind of ancient boats where used in India and Sri Lanka:
http://lankalibrary.com/images/buddhist-art11.jpg

Lonavla Caves built by Asoka
http://www.oktatabyebye.com/destination-fe…aharashtra.html

“Advanced History Of India” by Srinivasa Iyengar (1942)
http://www.archive.org/details/advancedhistoryo035045mbp

The Tiptika, “The Pali Canon” (Pali is a northern Indian dialect) is more often called “The Three Baskets” of Buddhism.
Asoka got the Buddhist teachings engraved into Pillars and rocks:

1) Vinaya – Pitaka: Monastic discipline of Monks.

2) Sutta – Pitaka: The Buddha teachings.

3) Abhidhamma – pitaka: Higher teaching of intellectual and academics about Sutta-Pitaka.

Inspired by Asoka in China:
“The Gold and Silver Wares of Famen Temple. Originally known as Asoka Temple, Famen Temple is located in Fufeng County of Xi’an, Shanxi Province.
It was first built during the reign of Emperor Ling of Han in the last years of the Eastern Han Dynasty, some 1,700 years ago.” (End of quote)
You can see the temple here:
http://www.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/html…41Arts1534.html

________

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post Oct 26 2008, 05:19 PM

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QUOTE (Paul_Johnsen @ Oct 26 2008, 05:42 PM) *
I believe that most R1a1 in Scandinavia (50-70% or so) come from one man who came to present-day Southern Sweden from the southern Baltic coast (in present day Germany/Poland). I used dr. Ken Nordtvedt’s utility an it gave an estimate of about 3,000 years for this group (very similar to Dr. Nordtvedt’s estimates for I1 in Scandinavia). Later one branch expanded greatly in particularly in Norway (about 2,000 years using the same utility). This branch is well correlated with the expansion of Norgesveldet, but its expansion date exceeds that of Norgesveldet by more than 800 years. I think this is because there was mass-movement of people.

I think it is very difficult to say anything about the cultural background of the man who likely lived 3,000. Possibly this wasn’t even an important man, even though he has many direct male living descendants today. There is really no reason to believe his other genes would have prospered as much as his Y-Chromosome. Even if he were totally “Asian” genetically speaking, this would likely rapidly have been water out by intermarriage with “locals”.

Paul-Johnsen, you might be right, this is an attempt to take another perspective than most do or have done when it comes to our history. Genetics leads the way and this might expand our horizons.

I agree that most y-chromosomal R1a in Scandinavia very likely came with more numerous people that migrated here and later than a first arriving smaller group of R1a-men. In my perspective the first group arrived with the migrations before the Viking area, well they must have, since they are the ones spread where the Vikings went.

It is difficult to be sure of the ethnic origin of people far back in history, but we have groups like the Goths here in Scandinavia, they were for a long time directly connected to the Norse Mythology. Bishop Olaus Magnus is important for our history and he actually called Odin and Thor for the Gods of the Geats i.e. Goths.

Asian and other people that migrated to Scandinavia intermingled / mixed with the people of origin and with other people that came this way. That is exactly what the Norse Saga tells us.

“At the time of Odin’s arrival in the North we find not only a country called Gardariki, which is often mentioned in the Sagas, and seems to have adjoined the south-eastern shores of the Baltic, but also the large Scandinavian peninsula and that of Jutland, and the islands and shores of the Baltic, populated by a seafaring people whose tribes had constant intercourse with each other, and, to judge by the finds, seem to have had an identical religion. These people intermarried with the Asar who came north with Odin, and hence arose tribes called half-Risar and half-Troll.” Quoted from “The Viking Age” by Du Chaillu, 1889.

Therefore most people from Scandinavia have origin in Asia and in Europe, and in other places. Why I bring this up is because India (and China) is suggestive of origins and it is incredibly interesting.

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post Oct 26 2008, 06:19 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 26 2008, 05:24 PM) *
Thanks for the article. Did they test the genes of the remains in the grave? Gothic, there was a guy that told about “darker” people in the place he live somewhere on the western coast of Norway. I did not ask what he meant with dark, but likely more pigmented skin and darker hair and eyes. He was from there and also told that they have a long history in Western Norway.

Oh I see, that sounds reasonable the theory about people in all of Norway being hunter, gatherers and fishermen (boat people) before the new migrations started before the Viking Age. Some sources tell that even in the southernmost parts, there were very few places where they farmed the land.

You might be right; I do not feel any need to defend Norwegian politicians and researchers back in time. However, to me it seems like there is a lot of hush – hush going on.

no sadly i dont know the genetic makeup of these graves…

also on the western coast of Norway we do have some peoples with darker features, i have it in my family as well and i guess it could a number of things really.. i was planning to do an autosomal test to see if i could unravel this mystery, but i have little faith in these tests at the moment, they seem somewhat primitive…but i might do a 23andme test one of these days, but i am not sure….so for now it remains a mystery….

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post Oct 26 2008, 09:42 PM

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Tacitus (Germania) clearly describes Germans rune-reading, in the 1st century AD.

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post Oct 27 2008, 05:04 PM

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PEACOCKS

“Mayuara is the Indian name for the peacock, a sacred bird, the symbol of immortality, which is believed to have been created from the feathers of a much larger bird, Garuda. The peacock is often depicted killing a snake, the symbol of cyclic time….. The Ray Gonds of Andhra Pradesh in Central India are noted for their fantastic headdresses of peacock feathers, made for their dancers who imitate the peacock’s courtship dance.” End of quote from “Peacock” by Christine E. Jackson – 2006. The author tells that Asoka ate Peacocks until he converted to Buddhism.
http://books.google.no/books?id=w9Krm_BikE…dq=peacocks+raj

WOOD CARVING AND WOOD WORK
“The Indian Empire” by William Wilson Hunter (1886):
Page 609 tells about elaborated woodcarving made in Gujarat (Guzerat) and other parts of India. They used black-wood, sandalwood and Jack-wood. The text also tells that the early architectural structure and ornamentations of the Buddhists were based on wooden forms.
http://books.google.no/books?id=yUhvfR1S_U…Empire#PPP17,M1

These photos are tagged under medieval palace in Gujarat. Even if I am not sure about the age the photo shows one type of wood carving in that area:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rocknrollovinguy/348935080/

“The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical Outline” by D. D. Kosambi (1964) http://www.inae.org/metallurgy/archives_pdf/kosambi.pdf

Art related to Asoka Raja, include “later gateways at Sanci”, shows direct translation into stone of a well-developed woodwork tradition. Relief’s at Karle,
at Kondane and other cave monasteries show that the many-storied houses were mostly of wood; even the characteristic ‘Buddhist arch’ was originally
in wood work. http://www.inae.org/metallurgy/archives_pdf/kosambi.pdf

Asoka built the late Mauryan hall that was excavated in Kumrahar in Patna, the buiding was made of heavy timber in roof, ceiling, substructures,
floors and draining systems. From the following text you can see that the Patna region was rich of timber and even miles of roads in Bihar was of
timber logs and so where the fortifications around Patna. http://www.inae.org/metallurgy/archives_pdf/kosambi.pdf

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 25 2008, 06:35 PM) *
You mentioned findings of Svastikas in the old Harappan culture (5300-3600 before present): Is this the oldest known finding of this symbol?

Swastika or svasti means “good fortune” in Sanskrit. The Greek meaning is similar “good being”. Max Müller protests against the use of Svastika outside India, since it is a symbol of people from India.

There were likely early migrations to Europe from the Indus Valley area, similar artefacts such as the Svastika are found in the Harappan archaeological sites. Migrations from there might explain the use of such Svastika symbols and the Indo- European languages spread over Europe.

What evidences are there for the use of IE-languages in the Harappan Culture?

Are “Buddhist similar ornaments” (including Buddha’s) found in Harappan and in different places of Europe?

The Svastika evidence is only one symbol that points to an Asian connection when it comes to the Viking Culture.

Does Genetic haplogroups support that there were migrations out of the Great Harappan Culture of Indus Valley eventually with the IE-languages?
Such migrations might match with the spread of R1b in Europe, however it does not match with a limited spread of y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a in Europe.

Asian people that mingled with the old Scandinavian populations, a meeting that resulted in the Viking Culture. The male haplogroups that seems related to the Vikings are as mentioned earlier R1a (Asian), I1a (European), and Q (Asian). Are there any supports of small frequencies of haplogroup N from Viking grave mounds or settlements?

The highest frequency of y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a1 is in Kashmir 72.2 % Sharma et al. (2007).

Genetic evidence (spread of certain male haplogroups in Europe and the haplogroups present in the Viking Age graves) fit the small-group-migration-theory of Asian peoples – mentioned in an earlier posting in this tread.

If it is, as it seems, Han-Dynasty culture reflected in the Viking ornaments and Culture, then eventual Asian migrations to Scandinavia probably came later than Asoka. How early were cultural expressions like seen during Han-Dynasty first was seen in Chinese culture?

Population genetic haplogroups leads more in direction of India, therefore it is important to take a look at relations between India and China. It is known that they have traded both via valley routes over the Himalayas, via the Silk Road and via sea.

This is a map of China during Han Dynasty, a later period than Asoka.http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/images/hanmap.jpg

If culture were heavily spread from India to China lets say in a period of time 300 BCE to 300 CE / AD, than this may explain why Han Dynasty ornaments resembles the ones in Viking Age Scandinavia even if they might have come from India.

I can’t answer many of the questions since I don’t have the answer!
The India-China silk route spread all the way to Scandinavia is possible. On the Svastika, the Indus symbol is clearly one of the oldest, whether it meant or was called svastika, I don’t know.

“R1a1 is in Kashmir 72.2 %” – I think this is incorrect, this number, being referred to in Sharma , et al is for a ‘Bengali’ Brahmin sample (WBB in Sengupta, et al)

Evidence for IE language in the Harrapan cuture is not direct, but indirect evidence from Hebrew and Sumerian texts seem to suggest that Indus language was IE.

QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 23 2008, 02:49 AM) *
The next questions is:

What land routes from India or relevant Buddhist areas in Asia, can people be traced all the way to Scandinavia?

Were Du Chaillu(1889) and Heyerdahl right, did these pre-Vikings migrate via the areas of Azov?

Azes is an area in India (as mentioned in an earlier posting), and Aser seems to have some relation to the areas near the Black Sea. Azov is a place name. A satisfaction even for the agnostic, or?

Are the same Buddhist symbols present in Azov, Don or Azerbaijan areas as in Scandinavia?

The track of the Kurgans interest me since they are clearly connected to Buddhism in the post 550bc period and the pagoda and stupa forms were spread to east asia by the Buddhists.

But someone must have introduced them to India since, if I am not mistaken, the earliest burial mounds in modern Nepal-India border region date to circa 1000-800bc while the mounds of steppes are much older. No early mound is present in western India. But in eastern India they are numerous – generally known by the word ‘dih.’

This has lead me to believe that the culture of the eastern India was initially slightly different (of the Vratya form), but over time the Vratya and Vedic merged.

On Azov, these may interest you – Jajlenko, V.P., The Indoaryans – the Cimmerians – the Taurians
“An ancient toponymy of the Inner Crimea includes a group of the unexplained place names – Parosta, Postigia, Badation, Caliord- (from the ethnic name Caliordi), Tabana, Dandaka, Argoda, Coretus, Lagyra. These place names belong to the territory of the old Taurians. The author supposes an Indoaryan origin of the place names – they find an explanation from the Sanscrit vocabulary. The comparison of the Greek forms of this place names with possible their Sanscrit sources shows the following correlation of the Indoaryan aspirate obstruent consonants and the Greek unaspirate: th – t,dh – d, gh – g. A Sanscrit nature of the above-mentioned place names shows that an old point of view of K.Ritter on the Taurians as a part of the Cimmerians is true because the eminent Russian linguist O.Trubachev has argued an Indoaryan origin of the Cimmerians.”
And
Ways of Indo-Aryan Migrations by Cyril Babaev
The first to suggest the hypothesis of Indo-Aryan presence in the region north and east to the Black Sea was Paul Kretschmer; in his work Inder am Kuban (Wien, 1944) he managed to gather several facts and historical evidence to state that tribes mentioned by Herodot, namely Sindes and Maeotes, were Indic by origin. Kretschmer noticed just a few etymologies which he thought were Indo-Aryan, but he even did not pay attention to hundreds of glosses
Another large discovery was a series of articles issued in Russian, American and German journals between 1975 and 1989 by Oleg Trubachov, who first managed to gather large range of data from Pontic districts and the Caucasus and to state that the language of people who used to live there were Indo-Aryan by origin. The book by Trubachov combining all his previous articles was called Indoarica in the North Black Sea region and was published in Moscow in 1999 (“Nauka”).
It seems now that Indo-Aryans used to inhabit lands along the Black Sea shores even in Herodot’s times: the tribes he mentions in his “Historia”, Sindes and Maeotes, are separated out from Scythians as a different nation: they were involved in agriculture and cattle-breeding, and occupied the fertile region on both sides of the Don river (then called Tanais), lived also along the Kuban river and at the foot of the Caucasus.
Herodot uses in most cases the form Indoi, which he must have heard from Scythians in Greek polises on the Black Sea shores, while many other sources (like Strabo, Dionysius, Stephen Byzantine, Polienus etc.) use Sindoi or Sindi, Sindones, the form they could probably hear on the spot. Another interesting gloss is the Hesychius’s dictionary which gives the following: Sindoi ethnos Indikon.
The very Tanais is called Sinu- by Scythians, and Maeotida [i.e. the Azov Sea] is called Temarunda, which means ‘mother of the sea’.”
[Please note, that Snorri brings Odin from the Tanais/Azov region].

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post Oct 28 2008, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE (parasar @ Oct 27 2008, 10:33 PM) *
I can’t answer many of the questions since I don’t have the answer!
The India-China silk route spread all the way to Scandinavia is possible. On the Svastika, the Indus symbol is clearly one of the oldest, whether it meant or was called svastika, I don’t know.

“R1a1 is in Kashmir 72.2 %” – I think this is incorrect, this number, being referred to in Sharma , et al is for a ‘Bengali’ Brahmin sample (WBB in Sengupta, et al)

Evidence for IE language in the Harrapan cuture is not direct, but indirect evidence from Hebrew and Sumerian texts seem to suggest that Indus language was IE.

The track of the Kurgans interest me since they are clearly connected to Buddhism in the post 550bc period and the pagoda and stupa forms were spread to east asia by the Buddhists.

But someone must have introduced them to India since, if I am not mistaken, the earliest burial mounds in modern Nepal-India border region date to circa 1000-800bc while the mounds of steppes are much older. No early mound is present in western India. But in eastern India they are numerous – generally known by the word ‘dih.’

This has lead me to believe that the culture of the eastern India was initially slightly different (of the Vratya form), but over time the Vratya and Vedic merged.

On Azov, these may interest you – Jajlenko, V.P., The Indoaryans – the Cimmerians – the Taurians
“An ancient toponymy of the Inner Crimea includes a group of the unexplained place names – Parosta, Postigia, Badation, Caliord- (from the ethnic name Caliordi), Tabana, Dandaka, Argoda, Coretus, Lagyra. These place names belong to the territory of the old Taurians. The author supposes an Indoaryan origin of the place names – they find an explanation from the Sanscrit vocabulary. The comparison of the Greek forms of this place names with possible their Sanscrit sources shows the following correlation of the Indoaryan aspirate obstruent consonants and the Greek unaspirate: th – t,dh – d, gh – g. A Sanscrit nature of the above-mentioned place names shows that an old point of view of K.Ritter on the Taurians as a part of the Cimmerians is true because the eminent Russian linguist O.Trubachev has argued an Indoaryan origin of the Cimmerians.”
And
Ways of Indo-Aryan Migrations by Cyril Babaev
The first to suggest the hypothesis of Indo-Aryan presence in the region north and east to the Black Sea was Paul Kretschmer; in his work Inder am Kuban (Wien, 1944) he managed to gather several facts and historical evidence to state that tribes mentioned by Herodot, namely Sindes and Maeotes, were Indic by origin. Kretschmer noticed just a few etymologies which he thought were Indo-Aryan, but he even did not pay attention to hundreds of glosses
Another large discovery was a series of articles issued in Russian, American and German journals between 1975 and 1989 by Oleg Trubachov, who first managed to gather large range of data from Pontic districts and the Caucasus and to state that the language of people who used to live there were Indo-Aryan by origin. The book by Trubachov combining all his previous articles was called Indoarica in the North Black Sea region and was published in Moscow in 1999 (“Nauka”).
It seems now that Indo-Aryans used to inhabit lands along the Black Sea shores even in Herodot’s times: the tribes he mentions in his “Historia”, Sindes and Maeotes, are separated out from Scythians as a different nation: they were involved in agriculture and cattle-breeding, and occupied the fertile region on both sides of the Don river (then called Tanais), lived also along the Kuban river and at the foot of the Caucasus.
Herodot uses in most cases the form Indoi, which he must have heard from Scythians in Greek polises on the Black Sea shores, while many other sources (like Strabo, Dionysius, Stephen Byzantine, Polienus etc.) use Sindoi or Sindi, Sindones, the form they could probably hear on the spot. Another interesting gloss is the Hesychius’s dictionary which gives the following: Sindoi ethnos Indikon.
The very Tanais is called Sinu- by Scythians, and Maeotida [i.e. the Azov Sea] is called Temarunda, which means ‘mother of the sea’.”
[Please note, that Snorri brings Odin from the Tanais/Azov region].

Parasar, it seems like the percentage is very high for M17/ R1a1 in a study from Pakistan. I have not seen this study by Sharma et al. (2007).

Kashmir is at least over 60% in Kasmiri, Pakistan (it is a bit difficult to read because the frequencies is given in diagrams and not numbers). Source: “Y-chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan” by Qamar et al. (2002). The frequency of R1a1 for Sindhi og Balti in this study are about 50%.

I found the high frequency in Wikipedia, it must have referred to another study: India (Kashmiri Pandits) 72.22% Sharma et al. (2007)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a

If you read this article: “The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations” by T. Kivisild (2003) you will see that they argue for an Indian origin of M17. If I understand correctly India & Pakistan belonged to the same country back in history. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG…72_p313-332.pdf

Compared to India M17 is not frequent in Iran, so it is less likely originated there before it came to Scandinavia. However men with M17 might have migrated from India via the Arabian Sea coast via present areas of Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea before they headed north-westwards.

Without checking frequencies in the articles this information is referring to the Wikipedia information in the URL attached:
Iran (Tehran) 4 % Wells et al. (2001)
Iran (Tehran) 20 % Nasidze,2004
Iran (Isfahan) 18 % Nasidze,2004

Are there traces of Buddhism in Iran and surrounding areas? Are additional sources to those of Heyerdahl?

I have not searched for information yet. Right now I am scanning over the history of the Khotans, to see where it will bring me.

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post Oct 28 2008, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 28 2008, 07:36 AM) *
Parasar, it seems like the percentage is very high for M17/ R1a1 in a study from Pakistan. I have not seen this study by Sharma et al. (2007).

Kashmir is at least over 60% in Kasmiri, Pakistan (it is a bit difficult to read because the frequencies is given in diagrams and not numbers). Source: “Y-chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan” by Qamar et al. (2002). The frequency of R1a1 for Sindhi og Balti in this study are about 50%.

I found the high frequency in Wikipedia, it must have referred to another study: India (Kashmiri Pandits) 72.22% Sharma et al. (2007)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a

If you read this article: “The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations” by T. Kivisild (2003) you will see that they argue for an Indian origin of M17. If I understand correctly India & Pakistan belonged to the same country back in history. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG…72_p313-332.pdf

Compared to India M17 is not frequent in Iran, so it is less likely originated there before it came to Scandinavia. However men with M17 might have migrated from India via the Arabian Sea coast via present areas of Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea before they headed north-westwards.

Without checking frequencies in the articles this information is referring to the Wikipedia information in the URL attached:
Iran (Tehran) 4 % Wells et al. (2001)
Iran (Tehran) 20 % Nasidze,2004
Iran (Isfahan) 18 % Nasidze,2004

Are there traces of Buddhism in Iran and surrounding areas? Are there more sources than Heyerdahl?

I have searched for information yet. Right now I am scanning over the history of the Khotans, to see where it will bring me.

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Khotan is a good place to look for clues – you can read eyewitness accounts of Fa Hien and Huen Tsiang on Khotan. It is also called Li-Yul – http://www.tibet.cn/tibetzt/study/english/abstract/ab_22.htm – ( as is Nepal) or country of Li (from I believe the Li-cchavi of Vaisali).

R1a1 is persent in eastern Iran and in the entire Indo-Gangetic plain in high frequencies, with some of the highest frequencies in eastern Uttar Pradesh and Bihar in eastern India. Diversity calculations indicate a higher variance on the southern Indus/Sarsut basin, but I have not seen diversity values for Bihar.
Therefore, even with a higher frequency in south Asia, a east Iranian origin is possible for R1a1.
Futhermore, other associated R’s, R1b and R-2, should also also be considered in conjunction with R1a1, they all may have a close point of origin.

Nevertheless, the route you mention – “men with M17 might have migrated from India via the Arabian Sea coast via present areas of Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea before they headed north-westwards” is well within the realm of possibility and is supported by the spread of the beliefs of Zarathustra and Gotama Buddha from the south asia.

On “Are there traces of Buddhism in Iran and surrounding areas?” Yes, the traces are clear in the eartern regions – in Bactria, Bokhara, Bamian, etc., very little to the west of that region, but El-Biruni says that prior to spread of Zorastrianism (probably by the Sassanids, though Beruni seems to implicate Zarathustra himself) Khurasan, Persia, Iraq, Mosul, and the country up to the frontier of Syria were Buddhist (Shamaniyya), and the Buddhists later retreated eastwards – .http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5949073_001/pages/ldpd_5949073_001_00000077.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= “In former times, Khurasan, Persis, ‘Irak, Mosul, the country up to the frontier of Syria, was Buddhistic, but then Zarathustra … came into favour with King Gushtasp, and his son Isfendiyad spread the new faith both in east and west, both by force and by treaties. He founded fire-temples through his whole empire, from the frontiers of China to those of the Greek empire. The succeeding kings made their religion (i.e. Zoroas-trianism) the obligatory state-religion for Persis and ‘Irak. In consequence, the Buddhists were banished from those countries, and had to emigrate to the countries east of Balkh.”

Places like Navbahar, Bokara, have the same etymology as the eastern Indian state of Bihar (from a Buddhist monastry or Bihar-Vihara in Sanskrit). The Persian house of Barmak (& Samanids – http://www.transoxiana.org/11/kamoliddin-samanids.html) may have been buddhistic initially (ref. the usage Sarmakas & Varmakas for priests & nobility, respectively).

” Bukhara – The etymology of the name of the famous city in Russian Turkestan as derived from Sanskrit vihara ” Buddhist temple,” Notes on The History of Transoxiana, by Richard N. Frye

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post Oct 28 2008, 07:10 PM

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I would love to see the linkage between Scandinavia and Buddhism broadened, but, I think it’s worth stressing a bit of caution when it comes to Middle Eastern samples.

India, from what I can see, has recieved a generous serving of attention from genealogists and archaeologists alike. When it comes to Iran, though, things aren’t quite that extensively researched, to be honest. Since the Islamic Revolution in 1979, all the archeology and historical work on ancient Iranian sites slowed down dramatically; especially with the barring of foreign Iranologists from Europe and North America.

What I’m saying is, most of what we know about Iran’s pre-Persian history is extremely limited. Sure, we have the Elamites in the south and various Caucasian groups occupying the northern region, along the Caspian sea, but, that’s nothing spectacular.

The data we have on Iran’s Y-DNA Hgs isn’t very accurate. I make that assertion based on two clear observations:

1) Like I stated before in the Aryan Invasion Theory thread, Iran’s population is extremely diverse. No researcher, be it Spencer Wells or anyone else, has done the country’s ethnic groups justice with their vague references to “South” and “North” Iran. Nobody’s specified if they went to Arab Iranians, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Turkmen, Lurs, Bakhtiaris, Balochis or Afghan-Iranians for their samples.

2) All the samples taken were in large cities. Cities, by definition, are large, bustling, heavily-populated regions that are economic hot-zones; for that very reason, foreigners from far and wide settle in them. An excellent modern example of that? England. From memory, I believe 70-80% of England’s immigrant population currently reside in the large cities, such as London, Liverpool, Birmingham… If you want a better idea of how the culture and people are in a nation, go out into the country. Not one study I’ve seen so far has been to the villages of Iran; all I ever see are the very places the Mongols, Arabs, Turks and other foreign powers swept in and made into their capitals, thus attracting more of their folk into Iranian cities. Tehran, Esfahan, Yazd, Shiraz… The genetic diversity within those cities is much larger than further out.

What we have on Iran’s just a rough guide to the country’s Y-DNA profile. From what the big cities have told us, we have more G, R1b and N to the north, and R1a, J1, R2 to the south, with a big chunk of J2 everywhere. I honestly think it’s a little bit prudent to try and build a case for R1a’s journey via Iran or the Caucasus for that very reason. Although there’s nothing wrong and everything right with creating a set of hypotheses, just, be careful with the murky realm that is modern-day Iran… (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Back on topic, though… One thing that’s struck my mind, is the tendency for people (me included) to associate a different set of physical features between two groups, as just that; two different groups, with different origins, interacting with each other.
While the notion of a dark-haired, slightly darker-skinned people coming into Scandinavia is plausible… Has anyone considered the possibility of those very people being from Scandinavia itself? Blonde/fair hair, from the maps I’ve seen, have diffused relatively evenly out from a central point in modern-day Finland/Sweden:

(IMG:http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg)

Bear in mind I said “relatively evenly” there. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) – As for the much lower frequency of blonde hair in the far North-East of Scandinavia… I’m curious over which ethnic group(s) currently live there? Am I right in assuming they’re Mongoloid folk who moved there in more recent times?
My point is, the “darker people coming into Scandinavia” might’ve just been the autosomal remnants, if you will, of the pre-Blonde expansion, who somehow adopted the customs and culture of people further down South-East. I say “expansion” in the metaphorical term, not literally. Anyway, it could be just as plausible; the only thing that would make me sure of any of the theories, was testing the autosomal DNA of any remains from around the fringes of Scandinavia. Then again, so would everyone else. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

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post Oct 28 2008, 08:14 PM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 28 2008, 08:10 PM) *
I would love to see the linkage between Scandinavia and Buddhism broadened, but, I think it’s worth stressing a bit of caution when it comes to Middle Eastern samples.

India, from what I can see, has recieved a generous serving of attention from genealogists and archaeologists alike. When it comes to Iran, though, things aren’t quite that extensively researched, to be honest. Since the Islamic Revolution in 1979, all the archeology and historical work on ancient Iranian sites slowed down dramatically; especially with the barring of foreign Iranologists from Europe and North America.

What I’m saying is, most of what we know about Iran’s pre-Persian history is extremely limited. Sure, we have the Elamites in the south and various Caucasian groups occupying the northern region, along the Caspian sea, but, that’s nothing spectacular.

The data we have on Iran’s Y-DNA Hgs isn’t very accurate. I make that assertion based on two clear observations:

1) Like I stated before in the Aryan Invasion Theory thread, Iran’s population is extremely diverse. No researcher, be it Spencer Wells or anyone else, has done the country’s ethnic groups justice with their vague references to “South” and “North” Iran. Nobody’s specified if they went to Arab Iranians, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Turkmen, Lurs, Bakhtiaris, Balochis or Afghan-Iranians for their samples.

2) All the samples taken were in large cities. Cities, by definition, are large, bustling, heavily-populated regions that are economic hot-zones; for that very reason, foreigners from far and wide settle in them. An excellent modern example of that? England. From memory, I believe 70-80% of England’s immigrant population currently reside in the large cities, such as London, Liverpool, Birmingham… If you want a better idea of how the culture and people are in a nation, go out into the country. Not one study I’ve seen so far has been to the villages of Iran; all I ever see are the very places the Mongols, Arabs, Turks and other foreign powers swept in and made into their capitals, thus attracting more of their folk into Iranian cities. Tehran, Esfahan, Yazd, Shiraz… The genetic diversity within those cities is much larger than further out.

What we have on Iran’s just a rough guide to the country’s Y-DNA profile. From what the big cities have told us, we have more G, R1b and N to the north, and R1a, J1, R2 to the south, with a big chunk of J2 everywhere. I honestly think it’s a little bit prudent to try and build a case for R1a’s journey via Iran or the Caucasus for that very reason. Although there’s nothing wrong and everything right with creating a set of hypotheses, just, be careful with the murky realm that is modern-day Iran… (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Back on topic, though… One thing that’s struck my mind, is the tendency for people (me included) to associate a different set of physical features between two groups, as just that; two different groups, with different origins, interacting with each other.
While the notion of a dark-haired, slightly darker-skinned people coming into Scandinavia is plausible… Has anyone considered the possibility of those very people being from Scandinavia itself? Blonde/fair hair, from the maps I’ve seen, have diffused relatively evenly out from a central point in modern-day Finland/Sweden:

(IMG:http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg)

Bear in mind I said “relatively evenly” there. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) – As for the much lower frequency of blonde hair in the far North-East of Scandinavia… I’m curious over which ethnic group(s) currently live there? Am I right in assuming they’re Mongoloid folk who moved there in more recent times?
My point is, the “darker people coming into Scandinavia” might’ve just been the autosomal remnants, if you will, of the pre-Blonde expansion, who somehow adopted the customs and culture of people further down South-East. I say “expansion” in the metaphorical term, not literally. Anyway, it could be just as plausible; the only thing that would make me sure of any of the theories, was testing the autosomal DNA of any remains from around the fringes of Scandinavia. Then again, so would everyone else. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

i totally agree with the Iran issue…

when it comes to northern parts of Scandinavia, well i am guessing it is the Saami population who has some east Asian Y-DNA and hence has more “darker” features in their peer group then other Scandinavians. i have met quite a few Saami over the years and some of them are indeed very dark, but some are also much lighter then me ect…

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post Oct 28 2008, 10:06 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 28 2008, 01:14 PM) *
i totally agree with the Iran issue…

when it comes to northern parts of Scandinavia, well i am guessing it is the Saami population who has some east Asian Y-DNA and hence has more “darker” features in their peer group then other Scandinavians. i have met quite a few Saami over the years and some of them are indeed very dark, but some are also much lighter then me ect…


Saami do not have any East Asian Y-DNA.

Perhaps you meant mtDNA: cf. Kristiina Tambets et al., “The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saami—the Story of Genetic
‘Outliers’ Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes,” American Journal of Human Genetics 74:661–682, 2004. This study has 6/445 = 1.3% haplogroup Z and 14/445 = 3.1% haplogroup D5 for a total of 20/445 = 4.5% mtDNA belonging to haplogroups that might be more common among some Asian populations (but not necessarily East Asians) than among other European populations. It is not certain that there is an East Asian connection even for this 4.5% of Saami mtDNA, however; I think I have read that haplogroup Z is more common among some populations of the Volga-Ural region than anywhere in Asia, and, if I am not mistaken, haplogroup D5 is also found among other populations in eastern Europe and the Middle East (Kurds, etc.), so its presence is not limited to East Asian populations.

Most Saami mtDNA belongs either to haplogroup U5b or to haplogroup V, which are both considered to be typically European (or at least not “East Asian”).

Besides the somewhat exotic D5 and Z, haplogroups H, U5a, W, and T also have been found in lesser percentages of Saami, but these other minor Saami haplogroups are all typically European (or, again, at least not East Asian).

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post Oct 29 2008, 03:07 AM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 28 2008, 03:10 PM) *
I would love to see the linkage between Scandinavia and Buddhism broadened, but, I think it’s worth stressing a bit of caution when it comes to Middle Eastern samples.

India, from what I can see, has recieved a generous serving of attention from genealogists and archaeologists alike. When it comes to Iran, though, things aren’t quite that extensively researched, to be honest. Since the Islamic Revolution in 1979, all the archeology and historical work on ancient Iranian sites slowed down dramatically; especially with the barring of foreign Iranologists from Europe and North America.

What I’m saying is, most of what we know about Iran’s pre-Persian history is extremely limited. Sure, we have the Elamites in the south and various Caucasian groups occupying the northern region, along the Caspian sea, but, that’s nothing spectacular.

The data we have on Iran’s Y-DNA Hgs isn’t very accurate. I make that assertion based on two clear observations:

1) Like I stated before in the Aryan Invasion Theory thread, Iran’s population is extremely diverse. No researcher, be it Spencer Wells or anyone else, has done the country’s ethnic groups justice with their vague references to “South” and “North” Iran. Nobody’s specified if they went to Arab Iranians, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Turkmen, Lurs, Bakhtiaris, Balochis or Afghan-Iranians for their samples.

2) All the samples taken were in large cities. Cities, by definition, are large, bustling, heavily-populated regions that are economic hot-zones; for that very reason, foreigners from far and wide settle in them. An excellent modern example of that? England. From memory, I believe 70-80% of England’s immigrant population currently reside in the large cities, such as London, Liverpool, Birmingham… If you want a better idea of how the culture and people are in a nation, go out into the country. Not one study I’ve seen so far has been to the villages of Iran; all I ever see are the very places the Mongols, Arabs, Turks and other foreign powers swept in and made into their capitals, thus attracting more of their folk into Iranian cities. Tehran, Esfahan, Yazd, Shiraz… The genetic diversity within those cities is much larger than further out.

What we have on Iran’s just a rough guide to the country’s Y-DNA profile. From what the big cities have told us, we have more G, R1b and N to the north, and R1a, J1, R2 to the south, with a big chunk of J2 everywhere. I honestly think it’s a little bit prudent to try and build a case for R1a’s journey via Iran or the Caucasus for that very reason. Although there’s nothing wrong and everything right with creating a set of hypotheses, just, be careful with the murky realm that is modern-day Iran… (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I too think Iran is very diverse, and is on the modern crossroad, and more genetic studies there will help.

On the other hand, to put things into perspective, for diversity especially, please consider the example of the little state of Bihar in India – (undivided) Bihar, has a population of about 120 million in an area of 66,000 sq miles, ie, about twice the population of Iran in one-tenth the area.
In that tiny area four major linguistic groups are present – IE, Dravidian, Austric, Tibeto-Burman, and with diversity comes the diversity in haplogroups.

This little area was in ancient times a place from where mighty Magadhan empires – as well as philosophies – Atharvan, Bauddha, Jina, originated.

Not only is the population is high today, but it was high in ancient times. Even if we put a factor of exaggeration, the ancient population of its metropolis Rajagaha and its surrounding areas had a population of millions in the Buddha period. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/r/raajagaha.htm

Similarly, a few centuries later, post-Alexander Greek accounts say the following about the Ganges Kingdoms which give an indication of their size, where even an island in the Ganges is said to be heavily populated:

“The people who live in the furthest-off part are the Gangarides, whose king possesses 1,000 horse, 700 elephants, and 60,000 foot in apparatus of war. In the Ganges there is an island extremely populous, occupied by a very powerful nation whose king keeps under arms 50,000 foot and 4,000 horse. In fact no one invested with kingly power ever keeps on foot a military force without a very great number of elephants and foot and cavalry. Next come the Andarae, a still more powerful race … army of 100,000 infantry, 2,000 cavalry, and 1,000 elephants. The royal city of the Calingae is called Parthalis. Over their king 60,000 foot-soldiers, 1,000 horsemen, 700 elephants…
But the Prasii surpass in power and glory every other people, not only in this quarter, but one may say in all India, their capital Palibothra, a very large and wealthy city…Their king has in his pay a standing army of 600,000 foot-soldiers, 30,000 cavalry, and 9,000 elephants: whence may be formed some conjecture as to the vastness of his resources.”

Other locations even though not as densely populated were heavily populated too. For comparison purposes, in the empire of Darius, just one his tributary provinces in south asia (he had four Bactria, Gandhara, Shatagydia, & Sindh) – Sindh provided one third of the revenue of the total empire. Sindh was the the most populous nation in the world known to Herodotus who did not know the parts of India east of the great desert – “Eastward of India (or Sindh) lies a desert of sand.”

As far as antiquity is concerned, the vedic peoples may have originated there too – between the Sarayu and the Sadanira (both mean always flowing) rivers.
As you see above, the Alexandran Greeks call them Prasii – which mean both east and ancient. The word for ancestor is Purava-ja – or born in Purva – again east as well as elucidated in this note:

“And because in the earliest of times this quarter was overspread … it is for this that it is called Purva. The gods, desirous of prosperity, performed all their religious ceremonies here. It was here that the divine Creator of the universe first sang the Vedas.
It was here that the Homa-fires, first drank articles of cognate origin (milk, butter, ghee). It was here that Varuna first repaired to the nether regions, and attained to all his prosperity. It was here, O bull among the twice born, that the birth, growth and death of the ancient Vasishtha took place.”

The monarch Asoka – mentioned in the title of this thread, was a Magadhan monarch – and I wanted to make clear that from mythical times of the Vratyas, Vasisthas & Atharvans, and Bhrguangirasas; to the Buddhas, the Jinas, the Uggas/Sakiyas/Licchavis; to the Nandas, the Mauryas and the Gupta/Gaudas, this region was a significant one.

As I have mentioned in another post on Vajjians and Mahasanghikas, that the Bactrians, Gandharans, trans-himalayans colonies on the western portions of the upper and lower silk routes, were migrants from the Magadhan region. Though they are precursors of the vedic peoples, the settled vedic peoples developed a dislike for them, and even referred to them as anarya.

[Please note that I am not advocating any out of India position here, since I think, that initially the Vratya as well as the Vedic peoples came from the trans-himalayan regions and entered south asia along river valleys – these antecedent river valleys have been stable since pre-human times and even pre-himalayan times].

If we need to study and understand the ancient origins of peoples, we need to study the region where most of them lived, and reports have suggested that region is southern asia – “on their way from Africa to populate the rest of the world … over half the population lived in Southern Asia between 50,000 and 25,000 years ago”
see, Human adolescence spent in South Asia
http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/news/a…le_movement.cfm

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post Oct 29 2008, 08:28 AM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 28 2008, 08:10 PM) *
I would love to see the linkage between Scandinavia and Buddhism broadened, but, I think it’s worth stressing a bit of caution when it comes to Middle Eastern samples.

India, from what I can see, has recieved a generous serving of attention from genealogists and archaeologists alike. When it comes to Iran, though, things aren’t quite that extensively researched, to be honest. Since the Islamic Revolution in 1979, all the archeology and historical work on ancient Iranian sites slowed down dramatically; especially with the barring of foreign Iranologists from Europe and North America.

What I’m saying is, most of what we know about Iran’s pre-Persian history is extremely limited. Sure, we have the Elamites in the south and various Caucasian groups occupying the northern region, along the Caspian sea, but, that’s nothing spectacular.

The data we have on Iran’s Y-DNA Hgs isn’t very accurate. I make that assertion based on two clear observations:

1) Like I stated before in the Aryan Invasion Theory thread, Iran’s population is extremely diverse. No researcher, be it Spencer Wells or anyone else, has done the country’s ethnic groups justice with their vague references to “South” and “North” Iran. Nobody’s specified if they went to Arab Iranians, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Turkmen, Lurs, Bakhtiaris, Balochis or Afghan-Iranians for their samples.

2) All the samples taken were in large cities. Cities, by definition, are large, bustling, heavily-populated regions that are economic hot-zones; for that very reason, foreigners from far and wide settle in them. An excellent modern example of that? England. From memory, I believe 70-80% of England’s immigrant population currently reside in the large cities, such as London, Liverpool, Birmingham… If you want a better idea of how the culture and people are in a nation, go out into the country. Not one study I’ve seen so far has been to the villages of Iran; all I ever see are the very places the Mongols, Arabs, Turks and other foreign powers swept in and made into their capitals, thus attracting more of their folk into Iranian cities. Tehran, Esfahan, Yazd, Shiraz… The genetic diversity within those cities is much larger than further out.

What we have on Iran’s just a rough guide to the country’s Y-DNA profile. From what the big cities have told us, we have more G, R1b and N to the north, and R1a, J1, R2 to the south, with a big chunk of J2 everywhere. I honestly think it’s a little bit prudent to try and build a case for R1a’s journey via Iran or the Caucasus for that very reason. Although there’s nothing wrong and everything right with creating a set of hypotheses, just, be careful with the murky realm that is modern-day Iran… (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Back on topic, though… One thing that’s struck my mind, is the tendency for people (me included) to associate a different set of physical features between two groups, as just that; two different groups, with different origins, interacting with each other.
While the notion of a dark-haired, slightly darker-skinned people coming into Scandinavia is plausible… Has anyone considered the possibility of those very people being from Scandinavia itself? Blonde/fair hair, from the maps I’ve seen, have diffused relatively evenly out from a central point in modern-day Finland/Sweden:

Bear in mind I said “relatively evenly” there. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) – As for the much lower frequency of blonde hair in the far North-East of Scandinavia… I’m curious over which ethnic group(s) currently live there? Am I right in assuming they’re Mongoloid folk who moved there in more recent times?
My point is, the “darker people coming into Scandinavia” might’ve just been the autosomal remnants, if you will, of the pre-Blonde expansion, who somehow adopted the customs and culture of people further down South-East. I say “expansion” in the metaphorical term, not literally. Anyway, it could be just as plausible; the only thing that would make me sure of any of the theories, was testing the autosomal DNA of any remains from around the fringes of Scandinavia. Then again, so would everyone else. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

DMXX, thanks for the comment. Hopefully some resourceful people can dig deeper into these topics. India, China, Central Asia and Iran are very exciting to learn more about, for a novice this is complex learning. Genes are only parts of the informational puzzle e.g. language, history, archaeology, and mythology etc. must be considered.

My comments on Persia will have to wait, however I understand your concerns.

About the map you added:
It is too simplifying to divide people into categories as for instance the map with hair color. Remembering how diverse hair, skin and eye colour etc. is only in my closest family. We have it all. Some have tried to average features as eye, skin, hair, nose form and stature etc. on a group levels and it resulted in crude simplifications and racism. Eugenics overlooked variations within groups. There are good reasons why such approaches are called “quasi-sciences” and cannot be considered more than that.

With haplogroups you can discuss origin, without discussing physical features or race, haplogroups reflects only a small fraction of our genes.

Why are there ignorance of facts and for some parts of our history, circular explanations and a general lack of curiosity and discussions? Why don’t keep an open mind, instead of protecting and continuing old prejudices?

See next posting….

:)Peace

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