Norwegian Stavekirke and Thailand temple: geneticists’ forum thread about Buddhaism in Norway #2

Geneticist Thread #2:
This thread is the second of two from a forum of geneticists discussing the influence or Buddhism in Norway. It is of possible interest in the relationship between Norway’s Stavkirke and the Thailand Buddhist temples which share too may similarities to be accidental.

> Asoka: From India to Scandinavia with Buddhism?

Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 08:50 AM

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BUDDHIST (?) PRACTICES IN SCANDINAVIA
That there have been practises similar to Buddhism in Scandinavia is supported in a book called ” The Ceremonies and Religious Customs of the Various Nations” (1725), the illustrations actually show how they are offering to a statue with crowned head and amulet on chest, holding a stick (Vajra?). Picart illustrated Buddha in similar ways for instance in India and Ceylon, see pictures in added site.

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/Pre-ChristianDeityScandinaviaPic-1.jpg)
A pre-Christian Scandinavian deity Picart (1725).

These engravings likely reflect the remains of Buddhism in Scandinavia and Buddhism might be a forceful explanation of why it took so long to Christianise parts of the population in the Nordic areas.

It is known that Picart was a propagandist of Christianity and often made rather ridiculing illustrations and descriptions of people practising other religions.

You can see examples in the following site:

Take a look at the images in this URL to see for instance how he illustrated Ceylonese worshiping of religious deities, and how he illustrates worshipping of Shiva in India. Picart, 1723.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritche…art/picart.html

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/WorshippingThor-Pre-ChristianDei-1.jpg) (IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/SaamiGodcarvedinstonephotobyWorm-Pe.jpg)
Worshipping of the God Thor in Scandinavia. This is an illustration of a pre-Christian Deity (Picart 1725). A God carved in stone photo by Worm-Petersen (1914), this was likely Thor. It seems like Thor was another God than the Buddha-like God in the first engraving of this posting.

Thor was described as the God of the Goths or Geats (ref. “Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalibus” by Olaus Magnus, 1555). The Goths mixed with the people of origin here, that is known from the Norse Mythologies. The mix of European and Asian people likely resulted in and is reflected in the Vikings culture of Scandinavia. It seems like the Saami people are mix of the old peoples of Scandinavia, Europeans and Asians as well as with newer people migrating to these areas. The Goths were far back in history more likely of South Asian origin, however they might have been a 50:50 mix of southern and eastern Asian if they for instance had Khotan / Kushan origins. If the Goths mixed with the Scandinavian indigenous people and these later became the Vikings, then the Goths must have been the ones that came with Buddha and Buddhist ornaments. Was Thor part of Buddhism or did he belong to the first people of Scandinavia?

It seems like there is need to look into Iron Age history in Scandinavia (Norway and Sweden) to understand what happened with the “Buddhist” Vikings that always have been described as Pagan. There is something is clearly missing in our story here. There are good reasons to question the pagan-descriptions of the Vikings. I doubt the correctness of Snorre when it comes to offering humans, to my knowledge that kind of offerings do not excist within Buddhist practises. Telling such awful stories might have been part of a pro-Christian campaign, in the same way as we later see with for instance Picart.

According to Wikipedia-sources it is told that many farms were built between 300-600 CE in the southern and western areas of Norway. That fits well with the “Buddhist” Vikings that seem to have brought new agricultural technologies here. However this article tells that something seems to have happened, because these farms were left during 600 CE. During 700eds a new agricultural expansion starts in the same areas. With and increase in the number of inhabitants in south, mid and northern Norway. http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jernalderen_i_Norge

Is the timing of new immigrations to Norway twisted, in the same way as the truth about religious practices?

The same trust in our official history is reflected in the following book:
“Archaeology and World Religion” by Timothy Insoll (2001)
In Scania in southern Sweden, for example, the long-standing pagan practice of making lake and bog-offerings appears to have been abandoned in the sixth century, before the introduction of Christianity. This change in ritual practice roughly coincided with the introduction of timbered halls as the most prominent type of building in local settlements, and thus could be related to changes in the local social structure, which may in turn have laid the foundations for the subsequent adoption of Christian beliefs by the elite (Fabech 1999:459).” (End of quote from “Archaeology and World Religion” by Timothy Insoll, 2001)

My Question is: Then why does the Timbered halls (Stavkirke) have Stupa-temple similar constructions and clearly Asian ornaments that fits well with the Viking symbolism from about 400 CE?

What has actually happened? (I do not have an answer but there must be some historical deceptions around).

Christianisatity triumphed early as a religion at least for the power elites in some Nordic areas, however the Christian religion does not seem to have affected the kings and queens buried in Oseberg or Gokstad in Norway during the 800eds CE. Clearly a religion with Buddhist symbolism have been present in Sweden and Norway at least from 400 CE or earlier and until about 900 – 1000 CE . We know that Asians were present in the Nordic as early somewhere between c. 300 – 50 BCE, referring to the finding of a bogman called Grauballeman / Grauballemanden in Denmark, so they likely have come here well before 400 CE. I do not know if they ever tested his haplogroup. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Grauballemanden.jpg

The Norse mythologies were written by Snorre, the politician, after new populations had settled in. Snorre died in 1240 CE. Were these myths partly constructed political tools rather than fairly reflecting an old history tradition? Did the camouflaging of Buddhism in the Nordic start with Snorre? Mythology has been a known and often used powerful political tool for a long time.

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evon

post Oct 29 2008, 10:41 AM

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 28 2008, 11:06 PM) *
Saami do not have any East Asian Y-DNA.

Perhaps you meant mtDNA: cf. Kristiina Tambets et al., “The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saami—the Story of Genetic
‘Outliers’ Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes,” American Journal of Human Genetics 74:661–682, 2004. This study has 6/445 = 1.3% haplogroup Z and 14/445 = 3.1% haplogroup D5 for a total of 20/445 = 4.5% mtDNA belonging to haplogroups that might be more common among some Asian populations (but not necessarily East Asians) than among other European populations. It is not certain that there is an East Asian connection even for this 4.5% of Saami mtDNA, however; I think I have read that haplogroup Z is more common among some populations of the Volga-Ural region than anywhere in Asia, and, if I am not mistaken, haplogroup D5 is also found among other populations in eastern Europe and the Middle East (Kurds, etc.), so its presence is not limited to East Asian populations.

Most Saami mtDNA belongs either to haplogroup U5b or to haplogroup V, which are both considered to be typically European (or at least not “East Asian”).

Besides the somewhat exotic D5 and Z, haplogroups H, U5a, W, and T also have been found in lesser percentages of Saami, but these other minor Saami haplogroups are all typically European (or, again, at least not East Asian).

actually they have some N Y-DNA which is Eurasian, but which can be classified as Asian.

i know they have very little or No MtDNA that would indicate Asian ancestry, but they clearly have some via the Y-DNA-..but it is widely believed that the peoples who had N were the ones who gave the Saami the languages they speak today, as they integrated with the mtDNA U5’s and V’s ect..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 11:29 AM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 29 2008, 11:41 AM) *
actually they have some N Y-DNA which is Eurasian, but which can be classified as Asian.

i know they have very little or No MtDNA that would indicate Asian ancestry, but they clearly have some via the Y-DNA-..but it is widely believed that the peoples who had N were the ones who gave the Saami the languages they speak today, as they integrated with the mtDNA U5’s and V’s ect..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)

From population genetics studies it seems like mtDNA U5b and V is nearly 90 % of Saami women. The earliest Scandinavians were unlikely the ones that came with Buddhism here, since these are defined as European genes in the same way as y-chromosomal haplogroup I1a that also is part of the Saami genetic pool. The Saami have also 14% of haplogroup J, however I am not sure when men with J migrated here and from where… see Raitio et al. (2001). http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471

The Goths were likely R1a or R1a1 men.

I am convinced that there are ancestors of the Vikings, not only in the present Saami populations. You mentioned for instance Western Norway (24.3%) and Dupuy et al. found 31.5 % in Mid Norway.

R1a /R1a1 is found in Northern Norway (nearly 30%, Dupuy et al. 2005), remember the christianisation and norwegianisation that have taken place in these areas, in Norway they have not tested the Saami isolated. That is a pity because the Norwegian Saami very likely reflects the old people of Scandinavia to a larger extent than the Saami of Finland and Sweden (with many newer Russian migrations). The Swedish Saami have 20% R1a / R1a1 and the Russian Saami have 21.7% according to Tambets et al. (2004). If there was small frequencies of haplogroup N among the Vikings is not known. I have found no studies that indicate a presence of y-chromosomal N in Viking graves. However I have not read all reports, do you know of any?

The concentrated European mtDNA in the oldest populations in present Scandinavia, in addition to the rare or non-existent mtDNA haplogroup-motifs found in Viking graves in Norway and Denmark again raise the question if the Asian (Buddhist) people came as seafarers. This might explain something, because the Goths then unlikely brought many women.

Khotans seems to have been of mixed origin, Greeks, Chinese, and Indian. Even if the Goths were of Khotan origin, some of them might have come from India as seafarers or via land migrations or a combination. The Khotans invaded India in the 2nd century BCE. I will post some information about the Khotan later on.

The Saami language might have come with people from Asia, India as well as Central or Northern Asia. There are some controversies about whether early Pictish (see earlier posting) originally was an IE language, many place names in Pictish resembles Saami. I simply do not know from where and when the Saami language came. It might have come with groups that migrated here before the Goths, the boat people, such as the Celtiberian, Galatian · Gaulish, Lepontic, and Noric. These were likely the Boat people of Europe. They were not the same as the Goths, however might have come from the same areas in the old river delta civilizations.

Experts might tell about this and the controversies regarding the Saami language, likely there are as many opinions as there are experts. It seems obvious that much authority is behind the efforts to disguise the real facts of the old cultures and religions of Scandinavia.

______

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evon

post Oct 29 2008, 12:07 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 29 2008, 12:29 PM) *
From population genetics studies it seems like mtDNA U5b and V is nearly 90 % of Saami women. The earliest Scandinavians were unlikely the ones that came with Buddhism here, since these are defined as European genes in the same way as y-chromosomal haplogroup I1a that also is part of the Saami genetic pool. The Saami have also 14% of haplogroup J, however I am not sure when men with J migrated here and from where… see Raitio et al. (2001). http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471

The Goths were likely R1a or R1a1 men.

I am convinced that there are ancestors of the Vikings, not only in the present Saami populations. You mentioned for instance Western Norway (24.3%) and Dupuy et al. found 31.5 % in Mid Norway.

R1a /R1a1 is found in Northern Norway (nearly 30%, Dupuy et al. 2005), remember the christianisation and norwegianisation that have taken place in these areas, in Norway they have not tested the Saami isolated. That is a pity because the Norwegian Saami very likely reflects the old people of Scandinavia to a larger extent than the Saami of Finland and Sweden (with many newer Russian migrations). The Swedish Saami have 20% R1a / R1a1 and the Russian Saami have 21.7% according to Tambets et al. (2004). If there was small frequencies of haplogroup N among the Vikings is not known. I have found no studies that indicate a presence of y-chromosomal N in Viking graves. However I have not read all reports, do you know of any?

The concentrated European mtDNA in the oldest populations in present Scandinavia, in addition to the rare or non-existent mtDNA haplogroup-motifs found in Viking graves in Norway and Denmark again raise the question if the Asian (Buddhist) people came as seafarers. This might explain something, because the Goths then unlikely brought many women.

Khotans seems to have been of mixed origin, Greeks, Chinese, and Indian. Even if the Goths were of Khotan origin, some of them might have come from India as seafarers or via land migrations or a combination. The Khotans invaded India in the 2nd century CE. I will post some information about the Khotan later on.

___

i think you misunderstood the answer i gave to Jake, it was in response to his “blonde” map and his query to why there was such a high frequency of dark haired people in the north and i simply gave him an answer that it might be due to the N Y-DNA of the Saami population ect…

and now to answer your post, if R1a is responsible for the “darkness” then i would expect to see it at a higher frequency in eastern Norway rather then Western ect as R1a is much higher there…. also then we would see a cluster of this R1a with the same of the descendants of the Goths, perhaps they could be found in certain parts of Europe? but then we would also have to exclude the Viking spread of R1a…

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 12:35 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 29 2008, 01:07 PM) *
i think you misunderstood the answer i gave to Jake, it was in response to his “blonde” map and his query to why there was such a high frequency of dark haired people in the north and i simply gave him an answer that it might be due to the N Y-DNA of the Saami population ect…

and now to answer your post, if R1a is responsible for the “darkness” then i would expect to see it at a higher frequency in eastern Norway rather then Western ect as R1a is much higher there…. also then we would see a cluster of this R1a with the same of the descendants of the Goths, perhaps they could be found in certain parts of Europe? but then we would also have to exclude the Viking spread of R1a…

Evon, that is ok. Then we repeated some findings. I do not correlate haplogroup R1a / R1a1 with “dark hair, skin or eyes”. Physical features are only meant as a suggestion. To believe that men with R1a or R1a1 are darker is the same as to believe that people are Saami if they have East Asian features, that is simply not true. There are actually other groups of people with a reasonable long history in the Nordic that have East Asian genes and whom are not Saami. However, people are mixed and it is a long time since people came from Asia with these migrations.

It is not correct to say that men here in the Nordic with R1a or R1a1 are Asian, but the origin of their genes might be Asian. The same is true for R1b and additionally for men from Finland, they have extreme high percentages of Eastern Asian genes (haplogroup N). However men with haplogroup N in Finland are not from East Asia. It is a long time since a fraction of their ancestors migrated to the Nordic.

Lets make it clear – once and for all – this is a discussion about the origin of haplogroups, not about living people, but genetic and cultural ancestors far back in time.

Eugenics was a quasi-science made such correlations of features such as eye, skin, hair, nose form, skull form and stature etc. and generalized it to group averages. All of that resulted in crude simplifications and racism. Eugenics overlooked variations within groups. There are good reasons why such approaches are called “quasi-sciences” and cannot be considered more than that. Referring to haplogroups is not racist, because it is only a small fraction of our genes that is reflected in them. That is why white men can have Sub-Saharan African haplogroups and vice versa. However the probability for being East Asian looking is higher if you have a haplogroup with origin in East Asia. Please do not make this a dicussion about looks. Eugenics is not very interesting.

—-

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DMXX

post Oct 29 2008, 12:49 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 29 2008, 08:28 AM) *
DMXX, thanks for the comment. Hopefully some resourceful people can dig deeper into these topics. India, China, Central Asia and Iran are very exciting to learn more about, for a novice this is complex learning. Genes are only parts of the informational puzzle e.g. language, history, archaeology, and mythology etc. must be considered.

My comments on Persia will have to wait, however I understand your concerns.

About the map you added:
It is too simplifying to divide people into categories as for instance the map with hair color. Remembering how diverse hair, skin and eye colour etc. is only in my closest family. We have it all. Some have tried to average features as eye, skin, hair, nose form and stature etc. on a group levels and it resulted in crude simplifications and racism. Eugenics overlooked variations within groups. There are good reasons why such approaches are called “quasi-sciences” and cannot be considered more than that.

With haplogroups you can discuss origin, without discussing physical features or race, haplogroups reflects only a small fraction of our genes.

Why are there ignorance of facts and for some parts of our history, circular explanations and a general lack of curiosity and discussions? Why don’t keep an open mind, instead of protecting and continuing old prejudices?

See next posting….

:)Peace

I only brought that map up once I saw hair colour was being mentioned, here. I think you’re reading a little too deeply into my reasons for posting that map, to be frank. Never did I mention that all blonde people are somehow related. The point which I was making, which you seem to have overlooked, is that the very “dark” people who supposedly entered deeper into Scandinavia might’ve simply been Scandinavians that lived on the fringes of the landmass, and didn’t have the gene for blonde hair enter their communities, for whatever reason. By posting a map there, showing how a random chunk of modern-day northern Scandinavia doesn’t seem to have as high a frequency of blonde hair, I was weighing up that possibility. I don’t know where this talk of dividing people came from; like I stated in my previous post, blonde hair spread from a single point via diffusion, as that image indicates. That was the only point I was trying to make.

I find it somewhat ironic that your interpretation of my words is in the same line of context as some of your previous posts. What’s all this talk of “Gothic looking” people, if autosomal DNA has no relevance here? If you were going by ancient texts have described, remember that there’s an element of exaggeration, almost always. Herodotus, for example, stated that King Xerxes’ army “numbered in the millions”, when the real figure is believed to be substantially lower. The ginger hair of the Tocharians in various Chinese murals also exaggerates the degree of red hair amongst them, as the differences were relative to the ethnic Han Chinese, rather than arbitrary.

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 01:01 PM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 29 2008, 01:49 PM) *
I only brought that map up once I saw hair colour was being mentioned, here. I think you’re reading a little too deeply into my reasons for posting that map, to be frank. Never did I mention that all blonde people are somehow related. The point which I was making, which you seem to have overlooked, is that the very “dark” people who supposedly entered deeper into Scandinavia might’ve simply been Scandinavians that lived on the fringes of the landmass, and didn’t have the gene for blonde hair enter their communities, for whatever reason. By posting a map there, showing how a random chunk of modern-day northern Scandinavia doesn’t seem to have as high a frequency of blonde hair, I was weighing up that possibility. I don’t know where this talk of dividing people came from; like I stated in my previous post, blonde hair spread from a single point via diffusion, as that image indicates. That was the only point I was trying to make.

I find it somewhat ironic that your interpretation of my words is in the same line of context as some of your previous posts. What’s all this talk of “Gothic looking” people, if autosomal DNA has no relevance here? If you were going by ancient texts have described, remember that there’s an element of exaggeration, almost always. Herodotus, for example, stated that King Xerxes’ army “numbered in the millions”, when the real figure is believed to be substantially lower. The ginger hair of the Tocharians in various Chinese murals also exaggerates the degree of red hair amongst them, as the differences were relative to the ethnic Han Chinese, rather than arbitrary.

Read the posting over, the one meant for Evon.

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DMXX

post Oct 29 2008, 01:17 PM

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One of the best ways we can discover more about the past, is by looking deeper into the present. I only entered this discussion when I saw the most poorly-researched region in Eurasia being mentioned as a possible migration route; Iran. Before that, I was just picking up knowledge on things I really don’t know about.

You can’t focus specifically on one aspect of a past population, without considering the realities of the present. Autosomal DNA means jack-sh*t when it comes to migration routes, I think we’re all perfectly aware of that. We don’t need to look far to see incredible diversity within our own families to pay homage to that fact.

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 29 2008, 02:17 PM) *
One of the best ways we can discover more about the past, is by looking deeper into the present. I only entered this discussion when I saw the most poorly-researched region in Eurasia being mentioned as a possible migration route; Iran. Before that, I was just picking up knowledge on things I really don’t know about.

You can’t focus specifically on one aspect of a past population, without considering the realities of the present. Autosomal DNA means jack-sh*t when it comes to migration routes, I think we’re all perfectly aware of that. We don’t need to look far to see incredible diversity within our own families to pay homage to that fact.

Yes I agree DMXX, Iran or to be more correct in regard to this topic – Persia – is very interesting. May be even in relation to the Vikings and Buddhism. It seems that Parasar knows about Persia. I am reading about the Khotan right now, trying to learn about a culture and people I had hardly heard about previously. The present is of course essential, but it is seldom a constructive approach to debate physical feature issues.

______

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evon

post Oct 29 2008, 02:07 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 29 2008, 01:35 PM) *
Evon, that is ok. Then we repeated some findings. I do not correlate haplogroup R1a / R1a1 with “dark hair, skin or eyes”. Physical features are only meant as a suggestion. To believe that men with R1a or R1a1 is darker is the same as to believe that people are Saami if they have East Asian features, that is simply not true. There are actually other groups of people with a reasonable long history in the Nordic that have East Asian genes and that are not Saami. However, people are mixed and it is a long time since people came from Asia with these migrations.

It is not correct to say that men here in the Nordic with R1a or R1a1 are Asian, but the origin of their genes might be Asian. The same is true for R1b and additionally for men from Finland, they have extreme high percentages of Eastern Asian genes (haplogroup N). However men with haplogroup N in Finland are not from East Asia. It is a long time since they migrated to the Nordic.

Lets make it clear – once and for all – this is a discussion about the origin of haplogroups, not about living people, but genetic and cultural ancestors far back in time.

Eugenics was a quasi-science made such correlations of features such as eye, skin, hair, nose form, skull form and stature etc. and generalized it to group averages. All of that resulted in crude simplifications and racism. Eugenics overlooked variations within groups. There are good reasons why such approaches are called “quasi-sciences” and cannot be considered more than that. Referring to haplogroups is not racist, because it is only a small fraction of our genes that is reflected in them. That is why white men can have Sub-Saharan African haplogroups and vice versa. However the probability for being East Asian looking is higher if you have a haplogroup with origin in East Asia. Please do not make this a dicussion about looks. Eugenics is not very interesting.

—-

its all been one misunderstanding after another, i totally agree, of course the N Y-DNA is not as a result of modern immigration ect, it must have happened ages ago, for my believing in the N as being a factor in the Saami “physical features”, that is just my theory and my experience of Saami people first hand, some have features that we in the west would associate with Oriental peoples such as Mongols, Koreans ect…i think it is simply too easy to misunderstand here and people always think that these associations i attribute to N as being negative, which i do not think they are in anyway.. also i am not the one who started this “Physical Features” discussion.

so lets get something straight, i think N has brought with it some features that are found at higher frequency then any of the other Scandinavian populations with perhaps the exceptions of some Fins who also seem to have “this” look about them..but this N has nothing to do with Buddhism or thing such as this as if N came to Sampi (Saami homeland) it would have been along time ago, much to old for Buddhism..

and for the R1a, well since i do not much about it really cant say…i can just make an educated guess…

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Jake

post Oct 29 2008, 03:36 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 29 2008, 05:07 AM) *
i think you misunderstood the answer i gave to Jake, it was in response to his “blonde” map and his query to why there was such a high frequency of dark haired people in the north and i simply gave him an answer that it might be due to the N Y-DNA of the Saami population ect…


I never posted any “blonde” map. Please take care not to misattribute a post to a forum participant who has nothing to do with it.

However, I do hope that you will realize that the only portion of that map that has shown a low (1%-19%) frequency of blonde hair in what could be mistaken to be part of “Scandinavia” is the Kola Peninsula of Russia, whose Saami population has been found to have substantial frequencies of haplogroups E and J. Why should you strive to attribute your perception of Saami in Norway (I assume that is where you are gathering your personal experience, since you seem to be a Norwegian) as having “dark features” to the presence of haplogroup N1c Y-DNA in their population, when haplogroup N1c attains its highest frequencies precisely where blonde hair is also most common (the circum-Baltic region)? You need to be more logical, and less prejudiced.

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parasar

post Oct 29 2008, 03:46 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 29 2008, 04:50 AM) *
BUDDHIST (?) PRACTICES IN SCANDINAVIA
That there have been practises similar to Buddhism in Scandinavia is supported in a book called ” The Ceremonies and Religious Customs of the Various Nations” (1725), the illustrations actually show how they are offering to a statue with crowned head and amulet on chest, holding a stick (Vajra?). Picart illustrated Buddha in similar ways for instance in India and Ceylon, see pictures in added site.

It seems like there is need to look into Iron Age history in Scandinavia (Norway and Sweden) to understand what happened with the “Buddhist” Vikings that always have been described as Pagan. There is something is clearly missing in our story here. There are good reasons to question the pagan-descriptions of the Vikings. I doubt the correctness of Snorre when it comes to offering humans, to my knowledge that kind of offerings do not excist within Buddhist practises. Telling such awful stories might have been part of a pro-Christian campaign, in the same way as we later see with for instance Picart.

According to Wikipedia-sources it is told that many farms were built between 300-600 CE in the southern and western areas of Norway. That fits well with the “Buddhist” Vikings that seem to have brought new agricultural technologies here. However this article tells that something seems to have happened, because these farms were left during 600 CE. During 700eds a new agricultural expansion starts in the same areas. With and increase in the number of inhabitants in south, mid and northern Norway. http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jernalderen_i_Norge

Is the timing of new immigrations to Norway twisted, in the same way as the truth about religious practices?

My Question is: Then why does the Timbered halls (Stavkirke) have Stupa-temple similar constructions and clearly Asian ornaments that fits well with the Viking symbolism from about 400 CE?

What has actually happened? (I do not have an answer but there must be some historical deceptions around).

The Norse mythologies were written by Snorre, the politician, after new populations had settled in. Snorre died in 1240 CE. Were these myths partly constructed political tools rather than fairly reflecting an old history tradition? Did the camouflaging of Buddhism in the Nordic start with Snorre? Mythology has been a known and powerful political tool for a long time.

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From what I have read about Snorri is that he wanted to keep the ancient sagas alive as by his time aspects of the old culture Asa culture were already dying out.
Buddhism is a modern term – in ancient times the term was Buddha’s law. If you note Odin is also referred to as a law-giver, eg. Odin made it a law that all dead men should be burnt with their ornaments.

The deity with the stick (if not a coincidence) may potentially be some form of a Lakulisa.
A lakulis is a stick – seen in early CE Kushan architecture – it is a Buddha-Shiva blend, where the Kushana Buddha/Shiva is the ruler.

Some Kushan coins have a Lakulisa form: http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng/079/image00532.jpg

My analysis on the date of Lakulisa:

Chandra’s Mathura Pillar Inscription, circa 380 AD mentions a Guruvayatana was established by Arya Uditacarya, who was fourth in descent from a Pasupata Bhagavan Parasara, who himself was sixth in descent from a Bhagavan Kusika. Kushika is mentioned in Puranas as one of the four disciples of Lakulisa.

Going backwards we get the following approximate dates at 25 years per generation for the timeline of these personages:

Udidyacarya – 380AD – Gupta Period, Chandra

Parasara – 280AD – End of Bharasiva Period

Kusika – 130AD – Just prior to Bharasiva Period

Lakulisa – 100-130AD – Kusana Period

This puts Lakulisa in the timeframe of the Kushana Shiva.

Other forms are seen at:
Siva Linga, Gudimallam, Parasuramesvara Temple, this figure may be as old as 200bc (http://asi.nic.in/asi_museums_chandragiri.asp), though I am not sure if the deity itself is not of a later period than the temple.

I am not exactly sure how the ASI got its date for the deity itself, but if it is correct it buries my Kusana/Siva timeline:

“archaeological excavations were undertaken in the sanctum of the Parasuramesvara temple that have provided an unbroken sequence of the temple’s long history (Sarma 1994). The beginnings of the Siva temple date to 2nd century BC when the stone Siva linga with an image of Siva standing on a yaksa was enshrined within a square stone railing of 1.35 m length on each side in the hypaethral shrine. The presence of cut bones of domestic sheep perhaps indicates animal sacrifice (Indian Archaeology – A Review 1973-74: 1-2). In Phase II dating from the 1st to 3rd centuries AD an apsidal brick temple was raised around the Siva linga … Inscriptions dating from AD 845 to 989 record gifts made by individuals to god Parasuramesvara. In the past, scholars such as Krishna Murthy had referred to the shrine as a Buddhist caitya on the basis of the apsidal form and the stone railing, which was subsequently converted into a Hindu temple (1983: 66), but this is clearly refuted by the results of the excavations. Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies – 17th November 2005 – Dr. Himanshu Prabha Ray JNU (unauthorized quote).

Lakulisa at Bhubanesvar – sitting pose but holding a staff.
Lakulisa at Bhuvanesvar holding a staff with his four disciples.
Some info is here:
http://www.indiainfoweb.com/orissa/bhubane…t-heritage.html

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Jake

post Oct 29 2008, 03:55 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 29 2008, 07:07 AM) *
so lets get something straight, i think N has brought with it some features that are found at higher frequency then any of the other Scandinavian populations with perhaps the exceptions of some Fins who also seem to have “this” look about them..but this N has nothing to do with Buddhism or thing such as this as if N came to Sampi (Saami homeland) it would have been along time ago, much to old for Buddhism..


Haplogroup N1c Y-DNA is as common among Lithuanians and Latvians as it is among Saami. Are you going to assert that Balts have “darker features” and “features that we in the west would associate with Oriental peoples” (these are your words) because of their high frequencies of haplogroup N1c Y-DNA?

Your argument was a failure from the start, because haplogroup N1c is not found with significant frequency in East Asia. Therefore, you cannot claim that the Saami are this or that way because “they have East Asian Y-DNA,” since they have no Y-DNA that is found at significantly higher frequency in East Asia than in Northern Europe, where the Saami actually reside. If you should be allowed to claim that haplogroup N1c Y-DNA is East Asian, then I should be able to claim on equal grounds that your haplogroup R1b Y-DNA is Native American. Please don’t make me explain why this is the case. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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Paul_Johnsen

post Oct 29 2008, 03:59 PM

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 29 2008, 04:36 PM) *
….N1c Y-DNA in their population, when haplogroup N1c attains its highest frequencies precisely where blonde hair is also most common (the circum-Baltic region….


Technically speaking the Yakuts have the highest measured frequency of Tat-c, as far as I know. I think the frequency is statistically significantly higher than the Baltic region (but I’d have to check).

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Jake

post Oct 29 2008, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE (Paul_Johnsen @ Oct 29 2008, 08:59 AM) *
Technically speaking the Yakuts have the highest measured frequency of Tat-c, as far as I know. I think the frequency is statistically significantly higher than the Baltic region (but I’d have to check).


I can assure you that the frequency of haplogroup N1c in Siberia, on average, is much lower than the frequency of haplogroup N1c in the Baltic region.

As for the exception of the Yakuts, please refer to my post in the haplogroup N forum; the Yakuts have a very low haplotype diversity within haplogroup N1c, they do not share their cluster of haplogroup N1c with their linguistic relatives (the other Siberian Turkic-speaking peoples), and their linguistic relatives have rather low frequencies of haplogroup N1c. The data all suggest that the genetic history of the Yakuts has been marked by a recent and overwhelmingly strong founder effect.

Furthermore, the Yakuts are irrelevant to the dispute between me and evon, because the Yakuts do not inhabit East Asia; thus, they are not “East Asian,” and cannot be used to support evon’s claim that “darker features” in some Saami are due to their having “East Asian Y-DNA.”

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Paul_Johnsen

post Oct 29 2008, 06:09 PM

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 29 2008, 05:06 PM) *
I can assure you that the frequency of haplogroup N1c in Siberia, on average, is much lower than the frequency of haplogroup N1c in the Baltic region.

As for the exception of the Yakuts, please refer to my post in the haplogroup N forum; the Yakuts have a very low haplotype diversity within haplogroup N1c, they do not share their cluster of haplogroup N1c with their linguistic relatives (the other Siberian Turkic-speaking peoples), and their linguistic relatives have rather low frequencies of haplogroup N1c. The data all suggest that the genetic history of the Yakuts has been marked by a recent and overwhelmingly strong founder effect.

Furthermore, the Yakuts are irrelevant to the dispute between me and evon, because the Yakuts do not inhabit East Asia; thus, they are not “East Asian,” and cannot be used to support evon’s claim that “darker features” in some Saami are due to their having “East Asian Y-DNA.”


I haven’t tried to calculate the frequency of N1c in Siberia, but I would imagine that it would be pretty hard seeing how large the area is (It would be about the same size as Europe). I agree that the Yakuts show a sign of a “recent and overwhelmingly strong founder effect”. The diversity is very very low and all have “off-ancestral” high values on DYS 392. I am aware that this technically isn’t in East Asia. I haven’t studied East Asian Ydna very well,but there doesn’t seem to be much Tat-c there. I think I remember some paper showing Tat-C in Japan, but I could be mistaken (or more likely:the paper could be “mistaken”).

As for Tat-C in Saami; it is clearly mostly the result of Finns. Most Saami appear to be in the Finnish cluster of N1c (who IMO also seem to be marked by a recent and overwhelmingly strong founder effect; although not as recently as the Yakuts).

I generally don’t believe that any physical “unique” features of Saami are related to any of their Y-dna haplogroups, as all of them seems to have been introduced quite recently in the Saami.

My point was that your statement was wrong, and I stick by that. N1c has been measured in higher frequency in places other than the Baltic.

It is very likely that you are correct when you claim: Siberia as a whole has lower frequency of N1c than the Baltics. However an equivalent geographic area to Siberia would be Europe, not just the Baltics.

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Paul_Johnsen

post Oct 29 2008, 06:18 PM

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I should also note that mtdna V has been found in India.

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Petrina

post Oct 29 2008, 06:25 PM

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QUOTE (Paul_Johnsen @ Oct 29 2008, 07:18 PM) *
I should also note that mtdna V has been found in India.

That is interesting Paul Johnsen, do you have the name of the study and eventually the URL?

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Jake

post Oct 29 2008, 06:37 PM

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QUOTE (Paul_Johnsen @ Oct 29 2008, 11:09 AM) *
My point was that your statement was wrong, and I stick by that. N1c has been measured in higher frequency in places other than the Baltic.

It is very likely that you are correct when you claim: Siberia as a whole has lower frequency of N1c than the Baltics. However an equivalent geographic area to Siberia would be Europe, not just the Baltics.


My statement was not wrong; my point was that haplogroup N1c is most common and diverse in the Baltic region, which is precisely where the center of the blondism cline lies. There is nothing incorrect about my claim. Furthermore, in my reply to your previous post, I explicitly specified that the Yakuts are an exception, and cannot be used to negate the fact that there is a much greater STR diversity and absolute number of haplogroup N1c individuals in the Baltic region than in indigenous peoples of Siberia. You would know exactly what I meant if you had read my post in the haplogroup N subforum, as I had asked you to do.

This attempt of yours to divert the discussion into a broader Europe vs. Siberia comparison is really irrelevant to my refutation of evon’s claim. I have only stated the fact that the region where blonde hair and haplogroup N1c Y-DNA both occur most commonly is the Baltic region. As for the Yakuts, they are a rather atypical population that is believed, based on linguistic and anthropological evidence, to have migrated to their present area of residence fairly recently; they do not constitute a “region” comparable to the “Baltic region” that I have mentioned in my previous statement. Your suggestion that we should consider the Yakuts as being of utmost significance and negating all available data on other populations of the greater Siberian region is like claiming that the Romani people in Europe are very significant in regard to the genetic prehistory of their present region of residence. Next, we’ll have someone claiming that Europe is the region where haplogroup H-M69 reaches its highest frequency. That is just incredibly silly, and it illustrates why it is important not to give too much weight to the frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroups in small populations of recent arrival to their present areas of inhabitation. In contrast to Siberia, where the Yakuts are the only population that definitely has a very high frequency of haplogroup N1c, all the populations (i.e. the general, or majority, populations, not just some small, linguistically and culturally homogeneous outlier group that has experienced a recent founder effect) of the eastern shores of the Baltic (Finns, Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians) have very high frequencies of haplogroup N1c. I hope no one will try to tell me that these populations of the Baltic region all share a recent common ethnic root, that their history in their current territories is short, or that they are linguistically homogeneous.

Furthermore, as pointed out by DMXX, the cline of blondism is centered in Finland and Sweden, i.e. the northern shores of the Baltic Sea (or perhaps this might be called the Bothnian region). Is there any other region besides this part of Northern Europe around the Baltic Sea in which blonde hair occurs in such a high percentage of the population? No (with the possible exception of some groups of Australian aborigines, but their form of blondism is somewhat different, I believe, and does not necessarily have the same genetic cause). Is there any other region besides this part of Northern Europe in which haplogroup N1c Y-DNA occurs with such high frequency and diversity? No. At the very least, this is enough to cast serious doubt on evon’s hypothesis of “darker features” being introduced by invaders bearing “East Asian Y-DNA” (even without considering the fact, which I have already pointed out, that haplogroup N1c cannot be called “East Asian”), and this was my original contention.

Now, the reason why I say the Yakuts are the only population of Siberia that “definitely” has a high frequency of N1c is because there have been some samples of some Siberian populations (Khanti and Chukchi are two that come to mind) that have exhibited rather high frequencies of N1c, yet other samples of these same populations have not exhibited such a high frequency of this haplogroup, and because of the very small sizes of these populations, one should not underestimate the possibility of recent founder effects and genetic drift.

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evon

post Oct 29 2008, 06:41 PM

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 29 2008, 04:36 PM) *
I never posted any “blonde” map. Please take care not to misattribute a post to a forum participant who has nothing to do with it.

However, I do hope that you will realize that the only portion of that map that has shown a low (1%-19%) frequency of blonde hair in what could be mistaken to be part of “Scandinavia” is the Kola Peninsula of Russia, whose Saami population has been found to have substantial frequencies of haplogroups E and J. Why should you strive to attribute your perception of Saami in Norway (I assume that is where you are gathering your personal experience, since you seem to be a Norwegian) as having “dark features” to the presence of haplogroup N1c Y-DNA in their population, when haplogroup N1c attains its highest frequencies precisely where blonde hair is also most common (the circum-Baltic region)? You need to be more logical, and less prejudiced.

first of all i want to apologize Petrina for making this thread into a discussion on “Physical features” rather then what this thread is all about…

and right you are, it seems i mistook you for DMXX on that one..

i have now opened another thread for this purpose so we can lead this subject away from this thread…

For those who like to argue about this stuff..

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Posted in Curiosities. Tags: , , , , , . Comments Off on Norwegian Stavekirke and Thailand temple: geneticists’ forum thread about Buddhaism in Norway #2