Norwegian Stavkirke vs. Thai temple: Geneticists talk about the Norwegian Buddhist connection

Thread #1: Geneticists talk about the Norwegian Buddhist connection-saved thread from October 2008

Connections between stavekirke in Norway and Thai temples post from Nov 2008.  The similarities between these two types of buildings are striking, yet the cultures seem too far apart to be related. This thread on a related subject is from a closed discussion forum and appeared in google cache.

https://camelsnose.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/the-buddhist-connection-to-norway/

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post Oct 26 2008, 01:33 AM

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QUOTE (goldenhind @ Oct 24 2008, 01:05 AM) *
Similarities between the Old Norse language and Sanskrit are probably a result of their shared Indo-European origin. Similarities in religion and culture may also be due to this fact.
Georges Dumezil compared ancient Indian, Old Scandinavian and Celtic culture and religion in his famour work Gods of the Ancient Northmen. A google search will tell you much about him.


Yes of course it might be, however what I am trying to say by posting this is that these old language studies alone have not necessarily led anyone in the right direction.

Population genetics seems to tell us a different story.

Georges Dumezil led me to Bruce Lincoln. Thank you!

Bruce Lincoln has written an article “Rewriting the German War God: Georges Dumézil, politics and scholarship in the late 1930s” and an article of Stefanie von Schnurbein: “The function of Loki in Snorri Stuluson’s Edda”.

What is so interesting is that names in Norse Mythology of the Gods and the different groups of people are so directly related to Indian Mythology and Sanskrit. To my knowledge more directly than elsewhere in Europen mythology.

An example Loke (also called Loki) in Norse and in Indian Mytology (the site have several parallels Norse – India).
“Loke acts as a mischief, making spy in Germanic myth, and Dadyak in Indian, and both lose their heads for wagers, but save them by cunning” (End of quote) http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml06.htm#page_12

Indra’s thunderbolt: “similarly the Teutonic elfin artisan Sindre makes Thor’s hammer
Here is an old carving of Indra with Vajra” (End of quote)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml06.htm#page_12

If you take a look down the site you can see that both Zeus and thunderbolt, Sicily, c. 355 B.C. and Greek Thunderbolt, 40 B.C is similar to those of Indra. http://www.sundial.thai-isan-lao.com/sundi…literature.html

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/Thorshammerswedenland-1.jpg)

The Scandinavian Thunderbolt has developed over time, however as late as early 1500 the thunder God Thor of the Goths / Geats were illustrated as following by the Swedish bishop Olaus Magnus.

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/Olaus_Magnus_-1500eds_Main_Gods_-1.jpg)

The old engraving shows that Thors hammer have been illustrated differently earlier, does this mean that some original versions of the hammer were
alike the Buddhist or Hindi Vajra.
“Vajra” is a Sanskrit word meaning both thunderbolt and diamond. In Tibet “dorje”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra

Mythology is only suggestive, and findings must be studied without relying too much on old interpretations. Language studies are only a part of the approach and the India / Asia – Scandinavia connections are not only related to language-similarities, also to mythology, ornaments, religious symbols, and population genetics. If you read the text in the posting over you will see why it seems like the eastern migrations to Scandinavia before the Viking Period likely is different from the pre-Celt and Celt cultures elsewhere in Europe.

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post Oct 26 2008, 03:09 AM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 23 2008, 05:30 PM) *
hi,

sadly i have not been able to find Gro mandts works online and i have yet to see any in English..but if you like i could supply you with her e-mail address and you could then ask her yourself?

also, from what i have read about the woman found in Viking graves, she was said to have their origin near the Caucasus/Iran area and not as far as India. Article

i do not have too much knowledge about the old religions of Norway ect…but i am sure there could well have been Buddhist there, but they would be no match for the more aggressive Germanic Mythology..Norwegians have throught the years always had a very relaxed attitude to religion and so it might simply have died out… i have recently read something about Christianity arriving at Norway at a much earlier date then previous though, but it seems that this early Christianity might have died out in the western fjords before the main wave came…maybe its the same with other religions?

i came across this while searching for something else by the way, i did not read all of it, but you might find it interesting:

Religion in Viking Age

another discussion about the subject of buddhas in Viking graves…

well i hope this helps a bit…

Hi and thank you for the URL’s. In a posting previous today, there is a comment on the svastika from the sources available. Yes, you are right- there is a relatively high percentage of mtDNA U7 in Kurdish Iran. This is not unexpected because there must have been migrations of people from India to the Persian Gulf and from there via land routes. Ancient Persians traded with India for thousands of years, at least since the Harappa period.

Even if mtDNA U7 is present in Kurdish Iran, other studies suggest that that U7 is of Palaeolithic origin in India, where the frequency U7 is highest in western India and Pakistan.

Why have we not heard about Buddhism here? (I will keep asking this question until there are some reasonable answers).

With so many obvious parallels between Buddhism and Old Norse religion it should have been interesting to look into a long time ago.
Parallels between the Old Norse and Buddhism have never been discussed in any of the books I have read. The Buddha from Sweden is commented in a previous posting.

You told that there was a major change of culture in the western fjords of Norway from about 400 AD:

Did your sources tell if that the change in culture in the western fjords was because of foreign people migrating in or because of migrating people from further south in Scandinavia where the Viking culture already had developed?

I have heard that there are some gothic-looking people in western Norway.

If there are written sources of earlier Christening of Norway than St. Olav (Olav den Hellige), why are these sources silenced / not discussed?

Is the Norse Saga as historical source believed to be more reliable than the stories of K. Arthur and his conquests of the Northern regions? I do not think that they are.

“Traditional Viking beliefs told that the Vanir were new-comers from the south who fought a war with the Aesir until a settlement was reached. It is unclear where this belief sprang from, and at what date. It is interesting to note however, that during the Age of Migration towards the end of the Roman Empire there was widespread migration both to and from Scandinavia. The immigrants included tribes of Gothic origin, whose ancestral homelands had been far to the south around the Black Sea. The beliefs surrounding the war between the Aesir and the Vanir may reflect the arrival of the outsiders with their own gods, and the eventual accommodation between the original inhabitants of Scandinavia and the new-comers, with the integration of their religious systems….” End of quote from the source you added http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Cwmnf…;cd=7&gl=uk

I do agree with the author that the that Gothic tribes likely were the people that came here, bringing haplogroups like y-chromosomal R1a and Q and mtDNA e.g. U7 and certain motifs of H. The question is from where and how they came. The people that migrated here were not “blank slates” (Tabula Rasa) therefore they must have left some of these Buddhist symbolism and ornaments along the path. Buddhist symbols and deep Asian connections do not simply develop isolated in Scandinavia just like that.

Since it seems almost impossible for many Norwegians and European to identify with far-away-places let me take a closer approach:

1) Did the new migrating groups come via Caucasus to the Black Sea before they migrated to Scandinavia?
2) Could they have migrated via the Central Asian steppes to Scandinavia?
3) Or could they have been seafaring people?

The last option will leave few traces along the route. The other two will and Buddhist symbols are very likely the connecting tread in this search since there are so many parallels with Buddhism and Viking ornaments. So many that these are not coincidental.

E.g. there was clearly some forms of Buddhism on the Central Asian steppes before the Viking Age: Are there then parallels in the use of symbols, ornaments, mythology and other cultural expression in Central Asian Buddhism before the Viking Age? The same questions for Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea areas.

Do archaeological findings fit the population genetic data between the areas studied (e.g. populations in present Scandinavia & Northern Europe, and Remains from Viking Age mounds compared to particular populations in Central Asia or Caucasus)?

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post Oct 26 2008, 08:19 AM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 25 2008, 11:35 PM) *
As I see it the Norwegian stavkirke has a close resemblance with dragon-style-temples for instance in Han Dynasty China. Do you know if there are any such ancient wood temples in India and eventually where?

You may get more information if you read the book “Norway – a piece of world history”, there it is mentioned even a painting of an asian/chinese in one Stavkirke. The authors explain this by the time’s admiration of the asians and their civilization far more advanced than the current norse.

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post Oct 26 2008, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 26 2008, 04:09 AM) *
Hi and thank you for the URL’s. In a posting previous today, there is a comment on the svastika from the sources available. Yes, you are right- there is a relatively high percentage of mtDNA U7 in Kurdish Iran. This is not unexpected because there very likely have been migrations of people from India to the Persian Gulf and from there via land routes. The ancient Persians traded with India for thousands of years, at least since the Harappa period.

Even if mtDNA U7 is present in Kurdish Iran, other studies suggest that that U7 is of Palaeolithic origin in India, where the frequency U7 is highest in western India and Pakistan.

Why have we not heard about Buddhism here? (I will keep asking this question until there are some reasonable answers).

With so many obvious parallels between Buddhism and Old Norse religion it should have been interesting to look into a long time ago.
Parallels between the Old Norse and Buddhism have never been discussed in any of the books I have read. The Buddha from Sweden is commented in a previous posting.

You told that there was a major change of culture in the western fjords of Norway from about 400 AD:

Did your sources tell if that the change in culture in the western fjords was because of foreign people migrating in or because of migrating people further south in Scandinavia where the Viking culture already had developed?

I have heard that there are some gothic-looking people in western Norway.

If there are written sources of earlier christening of Norway than St. Olav (Olav den Hellige), why are these silenced / not discussed?

Is the Norse Saga as historical source believed to be more reliable than the stories of K. Arthur and his conquests of the Northern regions? I do not think that they are.

“Traditional Viking beliefs told that the Vanir were new-comers from the south who fought a war with the Aesir until a settlement was reached. It is unclear where this belief sprang from, and at what date. It is interesting to note however, that during the Age of Migration towards the end of the Roman Empire there was widespread migration both to and from Scandinavia. The immigrants included tribes of Gothic origin, whose ancestral homelands had been far to the south around the Black Sea. The beliefs surrounding the war between the Aesir and the Vanir may reflect the arrival of the outsiders with their own gods, and the eventual accommodation between the original inhabitants of Scandinavia and the new-comers, with the integration of their religious systems….” End of quote from the source you added http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Cwmnf…;cd=7&gl=uk

I do agree with the author that the that Gothic tribes likely were the people that came here, bringing haplogroups like y-chromosomal R1a and Q and mtDNA e.g. U7 and certain motifs of H. The question is from where and how they came. Since it seems almost impossible for many Norwegians and European to identify with far away places let me take a closer approach:

1) Did the new migrating groups come via Caucasus to the Black Sea before they migrated to Scandinavia?
2) Could they have migrated via the Central Asian steppes to Scandinavia?
3) Or could they have been seafaring people?

The last option will leave few traces along the route. The other two will and Buddhist symbols are very likely the connecting tread in this search since there are so many parallels with Buddhism and Viking ornaments. So many that these are not coincidental.
E.g. there was clearly some forms of Buddhism on the Central Asian steppes before the Viking Age: Are there then parallels in the use of symbols, ornaments, mythology and other cultural expression in Central Asian Buddhism before the Viking Age? The same questions for Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea areas.

Do archaeological findings fit the population genetic data between the areas studied (e.g. populations in present Scandinavia & Northern Europe, and Remains from Viking Age mounds compared to particular populations in Central Asia or Caucasus)?

According to the paper i worked on these people who came with rune writing systems as well as Swastika symbols and so on came from east of the mountain plateau that separates Western Norway and Eastern Norway, or at least that is the theory Mandt puts forward. so that would place them in the areas that are today Eastern Norway and Western Sweden. she also talks about how they can not have come from South Western Norway as the natural barriers there would there stop them (glacier ect).. i also fits when we consider that older rune writings ect have been found in the eastern areas… we can say that the Native peoples who lived in Nordfjord was what we would call hunter gatherers and the new comers where farmers ect.. there is no mention of any difference in bone structure to indicate that new comers were not Nordic in their features…
also there was noted in the paper that the older population in nordfjord did have trade with cultures far from their own little world as well, so we cannot give the new comers all the glory here..

define Gothic looking? also Western Norway tend to have more Red and brown hair then eastern Norway, or atleast that is my impression, but this could be due to our close genetic ties with the Atlantic fringe..

about the Earlier Christianity:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article962826.ece

i cant find the original article which i some time ago read about this, but i might have written about it on this forum..but all i get is IPS error when i look for it…

i dont think its been such a hush hush subject in Norway, but i think there simply has not been much interest for it in the same fashion as other stuff also there are not that many researches working on these things…

and about the genetic make up of Norway with focus on Asia, well i dont know too much about this you would have to ask Paul Johnsen as i think he has been dabbling in atleast R1a ideas…

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post Oct 26 2008, 04:24 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 26 2008, 10:59 AM) *
According to the paper i worked on these people who came with rune writing systems as well as Swastika symbols and so on came from east of the mountain plateau that separates Western Norway and Eastern Norway, or at least that is the theory Mandt puts forward. so that would place them in the areas that are today Eastern Norway and Western Sweden. she also talks about how they can not have come from South Western Norway as the natural barriers there would there stop them (glacier ect).. i also fits when we consider that older rune writings ect have been found in the eastern areas… we can say that the Native peoples who lived in Nordfjord was what we would call hunter gatherers and the new comers where farmers ect.. there is no mention of any difference in bone structure to indicate that new comers were not Nordic in their features…
also there was noted in the paper that the older population in nordfjord did have trade with cultures far from their own little world as well, so we cannot give the new comers all the glory here..

define Gothic looking? also Western Norway tend to have more Red and brown hair then eastern Norway, or atleast that is my impression, but this could be due to our close genetic ties with the Atlantic fringe..

about the Earlier Christianity:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article962826.ece

i cant find the original article which i some time ago read about this, but i might have written about it on this forum..but all i get is IPS error when i look for it…

i dont think its been such a hush hush subject in Norway, but i think there simply has not been much interest for it in the same fashion as other stuff also there are not that many researches working on these things…

and about the genetic make up of Norway with focus on Asia, well i dont know too much about this you would have to ask Paul Johnsen as i think he has been dabbling in atleast R1a ideas…

Thanks for the article. Did they test the genes of the remains in the grave? Gothic, there was a guy that told about “darker” people in the place he live somewhere on the western coast of Norway. I did not ask what he meant with dark, but likely more pigmented skin and darker hair and eyes. He was from there and also told that they have a long history in Western Norway.

Oh I see, that sounds reasonable the theory about people in all of Norway being hunter, gatherers and fishermen (boat people) before the new migrations started before the Viking Age. Some sources tell that even in the southernmost parts, there were very few places where they farmed the land.

You might be right; I do not feel any need to defend Norwegian politicians and researchers back in time. However, to me it seems like there is a lot of hush – hush going on.

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post Oct 26 2008, 04:26 PM

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QUOTE (Njálla @ Oct 26 2008, 09:19 AM) *
You may get more information if you read the book “Norway – a piece of world history”, there it is mentioned even a painting of an asian/chinese in one Stavkirke. The authors explain this by the time’s admiration of the asians and their civilization far more advanced than the current norse.

Thanks for the reminder, I will read it … Stian Bromark og Dag Herbjørnsrud
”Norge – et lite stykke verdenshistorie”. I did not find a translated version.

The problem with the Chinese looking God in the Lom Stavkirke is that it is from 1608. http://www.capper-online.de/Travel/Norway/…0_Lom_Taufe.JPG

I do not know if this painting was restored after older original paintings belonging to this church, if so that would be utterly interesting in the perspective of this tread. Lom Stavkirke was built in the period 1170 –1200, and is then closely connected to the Viking Age.

It sounds weird to interpret the profound Asian influence only as a question of admiration of the Asian, as if there were no other connections to Asia here than mythology and artistic affiliation. We know better than that.

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post Oct 26 2008, 04:42 PM

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I believe that most R1a1 in Scandinavia (50-70% or so) come from one man who came to present-day Southern Sweden from the southern Baltic coast (in present day Germany/Poland). I used dr. Ken Nordtvedt’s utility an it gave an estimate of about 3,000 years for this group (very similar to Dr. Nordtvedt’s estimates for I1 in Scandinavia). Later one branch expanded greatly in particularly in Norway (about 2,000 years using the same utility). This branch is well correlated with the expansion of Norgesveldet, but its expansion date exceeds that of Norgesveldet by more than 800 years. I think this is because there was mass-movement of people.

I think it is very difficult to say anything about the cultural background of the man who likely lived 3,000. Possibly this wasn’t even an important man, even though he has many direct male living descendants today. There is really no reason to believe his other genes would have prospered as much as his Y-Chromosome. Even if he were totally “Asian” genetically speaking, this would likely rapidly have been water out by intermarriage with “locals”.

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post Oct 26 2008, 04:46 PM

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A timetable about the spread of Buddhism:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/timetable.htm

Relevant Periods in this context are:
1. Buddha’s lifetime, about 563 – 483 BCE
2. The Asoka Period about 304 – 232 BCE
3. The Kanishka Period 1st–3rd centuries. This was under Kushan rule of large parts of India and into China
Kanishka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanishka
Kushan Map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kushanmap.jpg

According this article Asoka sent missions to Kashmir and Gandhara, Mahisamandala (Mysore), Vanavasa (Northern Kanara),
Aparante (Gujerat and Kathiawar), Maharattha (Maharastra) , Yonaka desa (Greek States in North West India), Himavanta (Himalaya
Region), Suvannabhumi (Indo-China including Burma, Siam and Cambodia) and Tambapanni Dipa (Sri Lanka).

Ashoka also spread the Dhamma to Syria, Egypt, Macedonia, Cyrene, Epirus, Central Asia, Palestine and Alexandria.
The spread of Buddhism: http://www.buddhistview.com/site/epage/8069_225.htm

Asoka sent known missions as far as Macedonia.

King Asoka or Ashoka referred to himself as rājā māgadha. He had an administration in Taxila, present Paksitan in the west and
also in eastern India. Agricultural areas like Kalinga, Saurashtra and Raichur was also important areas for Asoka.

A Book:
Asoka, King of Magadha, fl. 259 B.C. India: History Maurya dynasty, ca. 322 B.C.-ca. 185 B.C
http://www.archive.org/details/asokaindia00macpuof t

Book about Buddhism and Hinduism http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16847/16847-0.txt

“Epic and History: Tradition, dissent and politics in India” by Romila Thapar, 1989
http://www.jstor.org/pss/650859

Magadha, South Bihar, located in Patna is an important location for Asoka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar

There is an ancient people in India called the GOTTE or Gond, Gondi and a Subgroup of them is called Asur. I have not checked
more about the Asur. Asur tribe in Bihar and Jharkhand.

Asur is an alternative name of the Gonds or Gondi according to this Joshua Project site. Many alternative names are given in the source.

This is likely a very generalized description of the Gond Tribe:

The Gonds are south Asian people that are considered indigenous in India.
They where once rulers in India and consider themselves to be a higher race. They have long traditions as agriculturists.
For dinner they make a certain palm liqueur. The Gonds tradition is to Sacrifice animals, very superstitious.
The information very generalized from the Joshua Project site, and of course such descriptions is overly simplified.

Read more here:
http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctry.php?…137&rog3=IN

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondi_people

Majority lives in Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra and Andhra. At the Satpura Plateau, where western type of Gondi language is spoken, and the district of Mandla.
Undergroups are Murias, the Hill Marias, and the so-called Bisonhorn Marias, all of whom speak Gondi dialects. I do not know if Gondi is considered a IE language.
Raj Gonds, they call themselves Koitur.

“The term Raj Gonds , which in the 1940s was still widely used, has now become almost obsolete, probably because of the political eclipse of the Gond rajas.
The rulers of Chanda, in present Maharashtra, were until 1749 powerful princes whose dominion included a large part of the Adilabad District of Andhra Pradesh.”
End of quote from http://www.escholarship.org/editions/view?…;doc.view=print

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/GreatstupaatSanchiIndiabyGraldAnfos.jpg)
Great stupa at Sanchi India by Gérald Anfossi, 2003 Wikimedia Creative share

THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF INDIA
BUDDHIST HINDU JAIN by BENJAMIN ROWLAND (1953)
“No pre-Aśokan stupas have been discovered, and there is no mention of veneration paid to relic-mounds in Buddhist literature before the Maurya Period.”
(Benjamin Rowland, 1953). Have there been found any since this book was written in 1953?

(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/SanchiStupatheEastgate72-25BCE.jpg)
Sanchi Stupa the East gate 72-25 BCE

Major historical periods in India with approximate timing:
Stone age 70000 – 3300 BCE
Mehrgarh Culture 7000 – 3300 BCE
Indus Valley – Harappan 3300 – 1700 BCE
Indus Valley – Late Harappan 1700–1300 BCE
Iron Age 1200 – 300 BCE
Vedic Civilization Period (1500 – 800 BCE)
Maha Janapadas 700–300 BCE
Pre – Maurya Civilization: Saisunaga Nanda Period (642 – 322 BCE):
Magadha Empire 550- 545 BCE
Maurya Empire India united from the Khyber to the Decca (322 – 185 BCE).
Asoka Raja, the earliest and most renowned imperial patron of Buddhism in Asia (272-232 BCE).
Middle Kingdoms 300 BCE–1279 CE
Chera Empire 300 BCE–200 CE
Chola Empire 250 BCE–1070 CE:
Satavahana 230 BCE–220 CE
The Sunga Period (185-72 BCE).
Kushan Empire 0–240 CE
Early Andhra Period (72-25 BCE)
Gupta Empire 280 – 550 CE

Classical Sinhala Paintings from about 600 AD Ceylon, give us a rough idea about what kind of ancient boats where used in India and Sri Lanka:
http://lankalibrary.com/images/buddhist-art11.jpg

Lonavla Caves built by Asoka
http://www.oktatabyebye.com/destination-fe…aharashtra.html

“Advanced History Of India” by Srinivasa Iyengar (1942)
http://www.archive.org/details/advancedhistoryo035045mbp

The Tiptika, “The Pali Canon” (Pali is a northern Indian dialect) is more often called “The Three Baskets” of Buddhism.
Asoka got the Buddhist teachings engraved into Pillars and rocks:

1) Vinaya – Pitaka: Monastic discipline of Monks.

2) Sutta – Pitaka: The Buddha teachings.

3) Abhidhamma – pitaka: Higher teaching of intellectual and academics about Sutta-Pitaka.

Inspired by Asoka in China:
“The Gold and Silver Wares of Famen Temple. Originally known as Asoka Temple, Famen Temple is located in Fufeng County of Xi’an, Shanxi Province.
It was first built during the reign of Emperor Ling of Han in the last years of the Eastern Han Dynasty, some 1,700 years ago.” (End of quote)
You can see the temple here:
http://www.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/html…41Arts1534.html

________

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post Oct 26 2008, 05:19 PM

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QUOTE (Paul_Johnsen @ Oct 26 2008, 05:42 PM) *
I believe that most R1a1 in Scandinavia (50-70% or so) come from one man who came to present-day Southern Sweden from the southern Baltic coast (in present day Germany/Poland). I used dr. Ken Nordtvedt’s utility an it gave an estimate of about 3,000 years for this group (very similar to Dr. Nordtvedt’s estimates for I1 in Scandinavia). Later one branch expanded greatly in particularly in Norway (about 2,000 years using the same utility). This branch is well correlated with the expansion of Norgesveldet, but its expansion date exceeds that of Norgesveldet by more than 800 years. I think this is because there was mass-movement of people.

I think it is very difficult to say anything about the cultural background of the man who likely lived 3,000. Possibly this wasn’t even an important man, even though he has many direct male living descendants today. There is really no reason to believe his other genes would have prospered as much as his Y-Chromosome. Even if he were totally “Asian” genetically speaking, this would likely rapidly have been water out by intermarriage with “locals”.

Paul-Johnsen, you might be right, this is an attempt to take another perspective than most do or have done when it comes to our history. Genetics leads the way and this might expand our horizons.

I agree that most y-chromosomal R1a in Scandinavia very likely came with more numerous people that migrated here and later than a first arriving smaller group of R1a-men. In my perspective the first group arrived with the migrations before the Viking area, well they must have, since they are the ones spread where the Vikings went.

It is difficult to be sure of the ethnic origin of people far back in history, but we have groups like the Goths here in Scandinavia, they were for a long time directly connected to the Norse Mythology. Bishop Olaus Magnus is important for our history and he actually called Odin and Thor for the Gods of the Geats i.e. Goths.

Asian and other people that migrated to Scandinavia intermingled / mixed with the people of origin and with other people that came this way. That is exactly what the Norse Saga tells us.

“At the time of Odin’s arrival in the North we find not only a country called Gardariki, which is often mentioned in the Sagas, and seems to have adjoined the south-eastern shores of the Baltic, but also the large Scandinavian peninsula and that of Jutland, and the islands and shores of the Baltic, populated by a seafaring people whose tribes had constant intercourse with each other, and, to judge by the finds, seem to have had an identical religion. These people intermarried with the Asar who came north with Odin, and hence arose tribes called half-Risar and half-Troll.” Quoted from “The Viking Age” by Du Chaillu, 1889.

Therefore most people from Scandinavia have origin in Asia and in Europe, and in other places. Why I bring this up is because India (and China) is suggestive of origins and it is incredibly interesting.

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post Oct 26 2008, 06:19 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 26 2008, 05:24 PM) *
Thanks for the article. Did they test the genes of the remains in the grave? Gothic, there was a guy that told about “darker” people in the place he live somewhere on the western coast of Norway. I did not ask what he meant with dark, but likely more pigmented skin and darker hair and eyes. He was from there and also told that they have a long history in Western Norway.

Oh I see, that sounds reasonable the theory about people in all of Norway being hunter, gatherers and fishermen (boat people) before the new migrations started before the Viking Age. Some sources tell that even in the southernmost parts, there were very few places where they farmed the land.

You might be right; I do not feel any need to defend Norwegian politicians and researchers back in time. However, to me it seems like there is a lot of hush – hush going on.

no sadly i dont know the genetic makeup of these graves…

also on the western coast of Norway we do have some peoples with darker features, i have it in my family as well and i guess it could a number of things really.. i was planning to do an autosomal test to see if i could unravel this mystery, but i have little faith in these tests at the moment, they seem somewhat primitive…but i might do a 23andme test one of these days, but i am not sure….so for now it remains a mystery….

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post Oct 26 2008, 09:42 PM

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Tacitus (Germania) clearly describes Germans rune-reading, in the 1st century AD.

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post Oct 27 2008, 05:04 PM

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PEACOCKS

“Mayuara is the Indian name for the peacock, a sacred bird, the symbol of immortality, which is believed to have been created from the feathers of a much larger bird, Garuda. The peacock is often depicted killing a snake, the symbol of cyclic time….. The Ray Gonds of Andhra Pradesh in Central India are noted for their fantastic headdresses of peacock feathers, made for their dancers who imitate the peacock’s courtship dance.” End of quote from “Peacock” by Christine E. Jackson – 2006. The author tells that Asoka ate Peacocks until he converted to Buddhism.
http://books.google.no/books?id=w9Krm_BikE…dq=peacocks+raj

WOOD CARVING AND WOOD WORK
“The Indian Empire” by William Wilson Hunter (1886):
Page 609 tells about elaborated woodcarving made in Gujarat (Guzerat) and other parts of India. They used black-wood, sandalwood and Jack-wood. The text also tells that the early architectural structure and ornamentations of the Buddhists were based on wooden forms.
http://books.google.no/books?id=yUhvfR1S_U…Empire#PPP17,M1

These photos are tagged under medieval palace in Gujarat. Even if I am not sure about the age the photo shows one type of wood carving in that area:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rocknrollovinguy/348935080/

“The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical Outline” by D. D. Kosambi (1964) http://www.inae.org/metallurgy/archives_pdf/kosambi.pdf

Art related to Asoka Raja, include “later gateways at Sanci”, shows direct translation into stone of a well-developed woodwork tradition. Relief’s at Karle,
at Kondane and other cave monasteries show that the many-storied houses were mostly of wood; even the characteristic ‘Buddhist arch’ was originally
in wood work. http://www.inae.org/metallurgy/archives_pdf/kosambi.pdf

Asoka built the late Mauryan hall that was excavated in Kumrahar in Patna, the buiding was made of heavy timber in roof, ceiling, substructures,
floors and draining systems. From the following text you can see that the Patna region was rich of timber and even miles of roads in Bihar was of
timber logs and so where the fortifications around Patna. http://www.inae.org/metallurgy/archives_pdf/kosambi.pdf

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post Oct 27 2008, 09:33 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 25 2008, 06:35 PM) *
You mentioned findings of Svastikas in the old Harappan culture (5300-3600 before present): Is this the oldest known finding of this symbol?

Swastika or svasti means “good fortune” in Sanskrit. The Greek meaning is similar “good being”. Max Müller protests against the use of Svastika outside India, since it is a symbol of people from India.

There were likely early migrations to Europe from the Indus Valley area, similar artefacts such as the Svastika are found in the Harappan archaeological sites. Migrations from there might explain the use of such Svastika symbols and the Indo- European languages spread over Europe.

What evidences are there for the use of IE-languages in the Harappan Culture?

Are “Buddhist similar ornaments” (including Buddha’s) found in Harappan and in different places of Europe?

The Svastika evidence is only one symbol that points to an Asian connection when it comes to the Viking Culture.

Does Genetic haplogroups support that there were migrations out of the Great Harappan Culture of Indus Valley eventually with the IE-languages?
Such migrations might match with the spread of R1b in Europe, however it does not match with a limited spread of y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a in Europe.

Asian people that mingled with the old Scandinavian populations, a meeting that resulted in the Viking Culture. The male haplogroups that seems related to the Vikings are as mentioned earlier R1a (Asian), I1a (European), and Q (Asian). Are there any supports of small frequencies of haplogroup N from Viking grave mounds or settlements?

The highest frequency of y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a1 is in Kashmir 72.2 % Sharma et al. (2007).

Genetic evidence (spread of certain male haplogroups in Europe and the haplogroups present in the Viking Age graves) fit the small-group-migration-theory of Asian peoples – mentioned in an earlier posting in this tread.

If it is, as it seems, Han-Dynasty culture reflected in the Viking ornaments and Culture, then eventual Asian migrations to Scandinavia probably came later than Asoka. How early were cultural expressions like seen during Han-Dynasty first was seen in Chinese culture?

Population genetic haplogroups leads more in direction of India, therefore it is important to take a look at relations between India and China. It is known that they have traded both via valley routes over the Himalayas, via the Silk Road and via sea.

This is a map of China during Han Dynasty, a later period than Asoka.http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/images/hanmap.jpg

If culture were heavily spread from India to China lets say in a period of time 300 BCE to 300 CE / AD, than this may explain why Han Dynasty ornaments resembles the ones in Viking Age Scandinavia even if they might have come from India.

I can’t answer many of the questions since I don’t have the answer!
The India-China silk route spread all the way to Scandinavia is possible. On the Svastika, the Indus symbol is clearly one of the oldest, whether it meant or was called svastika, I don’t know.

“R1a1 is in Kashmir 72.2 %” – I think this is incorrect, this number, being referred to in Sharma , et al is for a ‘Bengali’ Brahmin sample (WBB in Sengupta, et al)

Evidence for IE language in the Harrapan cuture is not direct, but indirect evidence from Hebrew and Sumerian texts seem to suggest that Indus language was IE.

QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 23 2008, 02:49 AM) *
The next questions is:

What land routes from India or relevant Buddhist areas in Asia, can people be traced all the way to Scandinavia?

Were Du Chaillu(1889) and Heyerdahl right, did these pre-Vikings migrate via the areas of Azov?

Azes is an area in India (as mentioned in an earlier posting), and Aser seems to have some relation to the areas near the Black Sea. Azov is a place name. A satisfaction even for the agnostic, or?

Are the same Buddhist symbols present in Azov, Don or Azerbaijan areas as in Scandinavia?

The track of the Kurgans interest me since they are clearly connected to Buddhism in the post 550bc period and the pagoda and stupa forms were spread to east asia by the Buddhists.

But someone must have introduced them to India since, if I am not mistaken, the earliest burial mounds in modern Nepal-India border region date to circa 1000-800bc while the mounds of steppes are much older. No early mound is present in western India. But in eastern India they are numerous – generally known by the word ‘dih.’

This has lead me to believe that the culture of the eastern India was initially slightly different (of the Vratya form), but over time the Vratya and Vedic merged.

On Azov, these may interest you – Jajlenko, V.P., The Indoaryans – the Cimmerians – the Taurians
“An ancient toponymy of the Inner Crimea includes a group of the unexplained place names – Parosta, Postigia, Badation, Caliord- (from the ethnic name Caliordi), Tabana, Dandaka, Argoda, Coretus, Lagyra. These place names belong to the territory of the old Taurians. The author supposes an Indoaryan origin of the place names – they find an explanation from the Sanscrit vocabulary. The comparison of the Greek forms of this place names with possible their Sanscrit sources shows the following correlation of the Indoaryan aspirate obstruent consonants and the Greek unaspirate: th – t,dh – d, gh – g. A Sanscrit nature of the above-mentioned place names shows that an old point of view of K.Ritter on the Taurians as a part of the Cimmerians is true because the eminent Russian linguist O.Trubachev has argued an Indoaryan origin of the Cimmerians.”
And
Ways of Indo-Aryan Migrations by Cyril Babaev
The first to suggest the hypothesis of Indo-Aryan presence in the region north and east to the Black Sea was Paul Kretschmer; in his work Inder am Kuban (Wien, 1944) he managed to gather several facts and historical evidence to state that tribes mentioned by Herodot, namely Sindes and Maeotes, were Indic by origin. Kretschmer noticed just a few etymologies which he thought were Indo-Aryan, but he even did not pay attention to hundreds of glosses
Another large discovery was a series of articles issued in Russian, American and German journals between 1975 and 1989 by Oleg Trubachov, who first managed to gather large range of data from Pontic districts and the Caucasus and to state that the language of people who used to live there were Indo-Aryan by origin. The book by Trubachov combining all his previous articles was called Indoarica in the North Black Sea region and was published in Moscow in 1999 (“Nauka”).
It seems now that Indo-Aryans used to inhabit lands along the Black Sea shores even in Herodot’s times: the tribes he mentions in his “Historia”, Sindes and Maeotes, are separated out from Scythians as a different nation: they were involved in agriculture and cattle-breeding, and occupied the fertile region on both sides of the Don river (then called Tanais), lived also along the Kuban river and at the foot of the Caucasus.
Herodot uses in most cases the form Indoi, which he must have heard from Scythians in Greek polises on the Black Sea shores, while many other sources (like Strabo, Dionysius, Stephen Byzantine, Polienus etc.) use Sindoi or Sindi, Sindones, the form they could probably hear on the spot. Another interesting gloss is the Hesychius’s dictionary which gives the following: Sindoi ethnos Indikon.
The very Tanais is called Sinu- by Scythians, and Maeotida [i.e. the Azov Sea] is called Temarunda, which means ‘mother of the sea’.”
[Please note, that Snorri brings Odin from the Tanais/Azov region].

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post Oct 28 2008, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE (parasar @ Oct 27 2008, 10:33 PM) *
I can’t answer many of the questions since I don’t have the answer!
The India-China silk route spread all the way to Scandinavia is possible. On the Svastika, the Indus symbol is clearly one of the oldest, whether it meant or was called svastika, I don’t know.

“R1a1 is in Kashmir 72.2 %” – I think this is incorrect, this number, being referred to in Sharma , et al is for a ‘Bengali’ Brahmin sample (WBB in Sengupta, et al)

Evidence for IE language in the Harrapan cuture is not direct, but indirect evidence from Hebrew and Sumerian texts seem to suggest that Indus language was IE.

The track of the Kurgans interest me since they are clearly connected to Buddhism in the post 550bc period and the pagoda and stupa forms were spread to east asia by the Buddhists.

But someone must have introduced them to India since, if I am not mistaken, the earliest burial mounds in modern Nepal-India border region date to circa 1000-800bc while the mounds of steppes are much older. No early mound is present in western India. But in eastern India they are numerous – generally known by the word ‘dih.’

This has lead me to believe that the culture of the eastern India was initially slightly different (of the Vratya form), but over time the Vratya and Vedic merged.

On Azov, these may interest you – Jajlenko, V.P., The Indoaryans – the Cimmerians – the Taurians
“An ancient toponymy of the Inner Crimea includes a group of the unexplained place names – Parosta, Postigia, Badation, Caliord- (from the ethnic name Caliordi), Tabana, Dandaka, Argoda, Coretus, Lagyra. These place names belong to the territory of the old Taurians. The author supposes an Indoaryan origin of the place names – they find an explanation from the Sanscrit vocabulary. The comparison of the Greek forms of this place names with possible their Sanscrit sources shows the following correlation of the Indoaryan aspirate obstruent consonants and the Greek unaspirate: th – t,dh – d, gh – g. A Sanscrit nature of the above-mentioned place names shows that an old point of view of K.Ritter on the Taurians as a part of the Cimmerians is true because the eminent Russian linguist O.Trubachev has argued an Indoaryan origin of the Cimmerians.”
And
Ways of Indo-Aryan Migrations by Cyril Babaev
The first to suggest the hypothesis of Indo-Aryan presence in the region north and east to the Black Sea was Paul Kretschmer; in his work Inder am Kuban (Wien, 1944) he managed to gather several facts and historical evidence to state that tribes mentioned by Herodot, namely Sindes and Maeotes, were Indic by origin. Kretschmer noticed just a few etymologies which he thought were Indo-Aryan, but he even did not pay attention to hundreds of glosses
Another large discovery was a series of articles issued in Russian, American and German journals between 1975 and 1989 by Oleg Trubachov, who first managed to gather large range of data from Pontic districts and the Caucasus and to state that the language of people who used to live there were Indo-Aryan by origin. The book by Trubachov combining all his previous articles was called Indoarica in the North Black Sea region and was published in Moscow in 1999 (“Nauka”).
It seems now that Indo-Aryans used to inhabit lands along the Black Sea shores even in Herodot’s times: the tribes he mentions in his “Historia”, Sindes and Maeotes, are separated out from Scythians as a different nation: they were involved in agriculture and cattle-breeding, and occupied the fertile region on both sides of the Don river (then called Tanais), lived also along the Kuban river and at the foot of the Caucasus.
Herodot uses in most cases the form Indoi, which he must have heard from Scythians in Greek polises on the Black Sea shores, while many other sources (like Strabo, Dionysius, Stephen Byzantine, Polienus etc.) use Sindoi or Sindi, Sindones, the form they could probably hear on the spot. Another interesting gloss is the Hesychius’s dictionary which gives the following: Sindoi ethnos Indikon.
The very Tanais is called Sinu- by Scythians, and Maeotida [i.e. the Azov Sea] is called Temarunda, which means ‘mother of the sea’.”
[Please note, that Snorri brings Odin from the Tanais/Azov region].

Parasar, it seems like the percentage is very high for M17/ R1a1 in a study from Pakistan. I have not seen this study by Sharma et al. (2007).

Kashmir is at least over 60% in Kasmiri, Pakistan (it is a bit difficult to read because the frequencies is given in diagrams and not numbers). Source: “Y-chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan” by Qamar et al. (2002). The frequency of R1a1 for Sindhi og Balti in this study are about 50%.

I found the high frequency in Wikipedia, it must have referred to another study: India (Kashmiri Pandits) 72.22% Sharma et al. (2007)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a

If you read this article: “The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations” by T. Kivisild (2003) you will see that they argue for an Indian origin of M17. If I understand correctly India & Pakistan belonged to the same country back in history. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG…72_p313-332.pdf

Compared to India M17 is not frequent in Iran, so it is less likely originated there before it came to Scandinavia. However men with M17 might have migrated from India via the Arabian Sea coast via present areas of Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea before they headed north-westwards.

Without checking frequencies in the articles this information is referring to the Wikipedia information in the URL attached:
Iran (Tehran) 4 % Wells et al. (2001)
Iran (Tehran) 20 % Nasidze,2004
Iran (Isfahan) 18 % Nasidze,2004

Are there traces of Buddhism in Iran and surrounding areas? Are additional sources to those of Heyerdahl?

I have not searched for information yet. Right now I am scanning over the history of the Khotans, to see where it will bring me.

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post Oct 28 2008, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE (Petrina @ Oct 28 2008, 07:36 AM) *
Parasar, it seems like the percentage is very high for M17/ R1a1 in a study from Pakistan. I have not seen this study by Sharma et al. (2007).

Kashmir is at least over 60% in Kasmiri, Pakistan (it is a bit difficult to read because the frequencies is given in diagrams and not numbers). Source: “Y-chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan” by Qamar et al. (2002). The frequency of R1a1 for Sindhi og Balti in this study are about 50%.

I found the high frequency in Wikipedia, it must have referred to another study: India (Kashmiri Pandits) 72.22% Sharma et al. (2007)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a

If you read this article: “The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations” by T. Kivisild (2003) you will see that they argue for an Indian origin of M17. If I understand correctly India & Pakistan belonged to the same country back in history. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG…72_p313-332.pdf

Compared to India M17 is not frequent in Iran, so it is less likely originated there before it came to Scandinavia. However men with M17 might have migrated from India via the Arabian Sea coast via present areas of Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea before they headed north-westwards.

Without checking frequencies in the articles this information is referring to the Wikipedia information in the URL attached:
Iran (Tehran) 4 % Wells et al. (2001)
Iran (Tehran) 20 % Nasidze,2004
Iran (Isfahan) 18 % Nasidze,2004

Are there traces of Buddhism in Iran and surrounding areas? Are there more sources than Heyerdahl?

I have searched for information yet. Right now I am scanning over the history of the Khotans, to see where it will bring me.

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Khotan is a good place to look for clues – you can read eyewitness accounts of Fa Hien and Huen Tsiang on Khotan. It is also called Li-Yul – http://www.tibet.cn/tibetzt/study/english/abstract/ab_22.htm – ( as is Nepal) or country of Li (from I believe the Li-cchavi of Vaisali).

R1a1 is persent in eastern Iran and in the entire Indo-Gangetic plain in high frequencies, with some of the highest frequencies in eastern Uttar Pradesh and Bihar in eastern India. Diversity calculations indicate a higher variance on the southern Indus/Sarsut basin, but I have not seen diversity values for Bihar.
Therefore, even with a higher frequency in south Asia, a east Iranian origin is possible for R1a1.
Futhermore, other associated R’s, R1b and R-2, should also also be considered in conjunction with R1a1, they all may have a close point of origin.

Nevertheless, the route you mention – “men with M17 might have migrated from India via the Arabian Sea coast via present areas of Iran, Caucasus and the Black Sea before they headed north-westwards” is well within the realm of possibility and is supported by the spread of the beliefs of Zarathustra and Gotama Buddha from the south asia.

On “Are there traces of Buddhism in Iran and surrounding areas?” Yes, the traces are clear in the eartern regions – in Bactria, Bokhara, Bamian, etc., very little to the west of that region, but El-Biruni says that prior to spread of Zorastrianism (probably by the Sassanids, though Beruni seems to implicate Zarathustra himself) Khurasan, Persia, Iraq, Mosul, and the country up to the frontier of Syria were Buddhist (Shamaniyya), and the Buddhists later retreated eastwards – .http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5949073_001/pages/ldpd_5949073_001_00000077.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= “In former times, Khurasan, Persis, ‘Irak, Mosul, the country up to the frontier of Syria, was Buddhistic, but then Zarathustra … came into favour with King Gushtasp, and his son Isfendiyad spread the new faith both in east and west, both by force and by treaties. He founded fire-temples through his whole empire, from the frontiers of China to those of the Greek empire. The succeeding kings made their religion (i.e. Zoroas-trianism) the obligatory state-religion for Persis and ‘Irak. In consequence, the Buddhists were banished from those countries, and had to emigrate to the countries east of Balkh.”

Places like Navbahar, Bokara, have the same etymology as the eastern Indian state of Bihar (from a Buddhist monastry or Bihar-Vihara in Sanskrit). The Persian house of Barmak (& Samanids – http://www.transoxiana.org/11/kamoliddin-samanids.html) may have been buddhistic initially (ref. the usage Sarmakas & Varmakas for priests & nobility, respectively).

” Bukhara – The etymology of the name of the famous city in Russian Turkestan as derived from Sanskrit vihara ” Buddhist temple,” Notes on The History of Transoxiana, by Richard N. Frye

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I would love to see the linkage between Scandinavia and Buddhism broadened, but, I think it’s worth stressing a bit of caution when it comes to Middle Eastern samples.

India, from what I can see, has recieved a generous serving of attention from genealogists and archaeologists alike. When it comes to Iran, though, things aren’t quite that extensively researched, to be honest. Since the Islamic Revolution in 1979, all the archeology and historical work on ancient Iranian sites slowed down dramatically; especially with the barring of foreign Iranologists from Europe and North America.

What I’m saying is, most of what we know about Iran’s pre-Persian history is extremely limited. Sure, we have the Elamites in the south and various Caucasian groups occupying the northern region, along the Caspian sea, but, that’s nothing spectacular.

The data we have on Iran’s Y-DNA Hgs isn’t very accurate. I make that assertion based on two clear observations:

1) Like I stated before in the Aryan Invasion Theory thread, Iran’s population is extremely diverse. No researcher, be it Spencer Wells or anyone else, has done the country’s ethnic groups justice with their vague references to “South” and “North” Iran. Nobody’s specified if they went to Arab Iranians, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Turkmen, Lurs, Bakhtiaris, Balochis or Afghan-Iranians for their samples.

2) All the samples taken were in large cities. Cities, by definition, are large, bustling, heavily-populated regions that are economic hot-zones; for that very reason, foreigners from far and wide settle in them. An excellent modern example of that? England. From memory, I believe 70-80% of England’s immigrant population currently reside in the large cities, such as London, Liverpool, Birmingham… If you want a better idea of how the culture and people are in a nation, go out into the country. Not one study I’ve seen so far has been to the villages of Iran; all I ever see are the very places the Mongols, Arabs, Turks and other foreign powers swept in and made into their capitals, thus attracting more of their folk into Iranian cities. Tehran, Esfahan, Yazd, Shiraz… The genetic diversity within those cities is much larger than further out.

What we have on Iran’s just a rough guide to the country’s Y-DNA profile. From what the big cities have told us, we have more G, R1b and N to the north, and R1a, J1, R2 to the south, with a big chunk of J2 everywhere. I honestly think it’s a little bit prudent to try and build a case for R1a’s journey via Iran or the Caucasus for that very reason. Although there’s nothing wrong and everything right with creating a set of hypotheses, just, be careful with the murky realm that is modern-day Iran… (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Back on topic, though… One thing that’s struck my mind, is the tendency for people (me included) to associate a different set of physical features between two groups, as just that; two different groups, with different origins, interacting with each other.
While the notion of a dark-haired, slightly darker-skinned people coming into Scandinavia is plausible… Has anyone considered the possibility of those very people being from Scandinavia itself? Blonde/fair hair, from the maps I’ve seen, have diffused relatively evenly out from a central point in modern-day Finland/Sweden:

(IMG:http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg)

Bear in mind I said “relatively evenly” there. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) – As for the much lower frequency of blonde hair in the far North-East of Scandinavia… I’m curious over which ethnic group(s) currently live there? Am I right in assuming they’re Mongoloid folk who moved there in more recent times?
My point is, the “darker people coming into Scandinavia” might’ve just been the autosomal remnants, if you will, of the pre-Blonde expansion, who somehow adopted the customs and culture of people further down South-East. I say “expansion” in the metaphorical term, not literally. Anyway, it could be just as plausible; the only thing that would make me sure of any of the theories, was testing the autosomal DNA of any remains from around the fringes of Scandinavia. Then again, so would everyone else. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

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post Oct 28 2008, 08:14 PM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 28 2008, 08:10 PM) *
I would love to see the linkage between Scandinavia and Buddhism broadened, but, I think it’s worth stressing a bit of caution when it comes to Middle Eastern samples.

India, from what I can see, has recieved a generous serving of attention from genealogists and archaeologists alike. When it comes to Iran, though, things aren’t quite that extensively researched, to be honest. Since the Islamic Revolution in 1979, all the archeology and historical work on ancient Iranian sites slowed down dramatically; especially with the barring of foreign Iranologists from Europe and North America.

What I’m saying is, most of what we know about Iran’s pre-Persian history is extremely limited. Sure, we have the Elamites in the south and various Caucasian groups occupying the northern region, along the Caspian sea, but, that’s nothing spectacular.

The data we have on Iran’s Y-DNA Hgs isn’t very accurate. I make that assertion based on two clear observations:

1) Like I stated before in the Aryan Invasion Theory thread, Iran’s population is extremely diverse. No researcher, be it Spencer Wells or anyone else, has done the country’s ethnic groups justice with their vague references to “South” and “North” Iran. Nobody’s specified if they went to Arab Iranians, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Turkmen, Lurs, Bakhtiaris, Balochis or Afghan-Iranians for their samples.

2) All the samples taken were in large cities. Cities, by definition, are large, bustling, heavily-populated regions that are economic hot-zones; for that very reason, foreigners from far and wide settle in them. An excellent modern example of that? England. From memory, I believe 70-80% of England’s immigrant population currently reside in the large cities, such as London, Liverpool, Birmingham… If you want a better idea of how the culture and people are in a nation, go out into the country. Not one study I’ve seen so far has been to the villages of Iran; all I ever see are the very places the Mongols, Arabs, Turks and other foreign powers swept in and made into their capitals, thus attracting more of their folk into Iranian cities. Tehran, Esfahan, Yazd, Shiraz… The genetic diversity within those cities is much larger than further out.

What we have on Iran’s just a rough guide to the country’s Y-DNA profile. From what the big cities have told us, we have more G, R1b and N to the north, and R1a, J1, R2 to the south, with a big chunk of J2 everywhere. I honestly think it’s a little bit prudent to try and build a case for R1a’s journey via Iran or the Caucasus for that very reason. Although there’s nothing wrong and everything right with creating a set of hypotheses, just, be careful with the murky realm that is modern-day Iran… (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Back on topic, though… One thing that’s struck my mind, is the tendency for people (me included) to associate a different set of physical features between two groups, as just that; two different groups, with different origins, interacting with each other.
While the notion of a dark-haired, slightly darker-skinned people coming into Scandinavia is plausible… Has anyone considered the possibility of those very people being from Scandinavia itself? Blonde/fair hair, from the maps I’ve seen, have diffused relatively evenly out from a central point in modern-day Finland/Sweden:

(IMG:http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg)

Bear in mind I said “relatively evenly” there. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) – As for the much lower frequency of blonde hair in the far North-East of Scandinavia… I’m curious over which ethnic group(s) currently live there? Am I right in assuming they’re Mongoloid folk who moved there in more recent times?
My point is, the “darker people coming into Scandinavia” might’ve just been the autosomal remnants, if you will, of the pre-Blonde expansion, who somehow adopted the customs and culture of people further down South-East. I say “expansion” in the metaphorical term, not literally. Anyway, it could be just as plausible; the only thing that would make me sure of any of the theories, was testing the autosomal DNA of any remains from around the fringes of Scandinavia. Then again, so would everyone else. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

i totally agree with the Iran issue…

when it comes to northern parts of Scandinavia, well i am guessing it is the Saami population who has some east Asian Y-DNA and hence has more “darker” features in their peer group then other Scandinavians. i have met quite a few Saami over the years and some of them are indeed very dark, but some are also much lighter then me ect…

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post Oct 28 2008, 10:06 PM

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QUOTE (evon @ Oct 28 2008, 01:14 PM) *
i totally agree with the Iran issue…

when it comes to northern parts of Scandinavia, well i am guessing it is the Saami population who has some east Asian Y-DNA and hence has more “darker” features in their peer group then other Scandinavians. i have met quite a few Saami over the years and some of them are indeed very dark, but some are also much lighter then me ect…


Saami do not have any East Asian Y-DNA.

Perhaps you meant mtDNA: cf. Kristiina Tambets et al., “The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saami—the Story of Genetic
‘Outliers’ Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes,” American Journal of Human Genetics 74:661–682, 2004. This study has 6/445 = 1.3% haplogroup Z and 14/445 = 3.1% haplogroup D5 for a total of 20/445 = 4.5% mtDNA belonging to haplogroups that might be more common among some Asian populations (but not necessarily East Asians) than among other European populations. It is not certain that there is an East Asian connection even for this 4.5% of Saami mtDNA, however; I think I have read that haplogroup Z is more common among some populations of the Volga-Ural region than anywhere in Asia, and, if I am not mistaken, haplogroup D5 is also found among other populations in eastern Europe and the Middle East (Kurds, etc.), so its presence is not limited to East Asian populations.

Most Saami mtDNA belongs either to haplogroup U5b or to haplogroup V, which are both considered to be typically European (or at least not “East Asian”).

Besides the somewhat exotic D5 and Z, haplogroups H, U5a, W, and T also have been found in lesser percentages of Saami, but these other minor Saami haplogroups are all typically European (or, again, at least not East Asian).

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post Oct 29 2008, 03:07 AM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 28 2008, 03:10 PM) *
I would love to see the linkage between Scandinavia and Buddhism broadened, but, I think it’s worth stressing a bit of caution when it comes to Middle Eastern samples.

India, from what I can see, has recieved a generous serving of attention from genealogists and archaeologists alike. When it comes to Iran, though, things aren’t quite that extensively researched, to be honest. Since the Islamic Revolution in 1979, all the archeology and historical work on ancient Iranian sites slowed down dramatically; especially with the barring of foreign Iranologists from Europe and North America.

What I’m saying is, most of what we know about Iran’s pre-Persian history is extremely limited. Sure, we have the Elamites in the south and various Caucasian groups occupying the northern region, along the Caspian sea, but, that’s nothing spectacular.

The data we have on Iran’s Y-DNA Hgs isn’t very accurate. I make that assertion based on two clear observations:

1) Like I stated before in the Aryan Invasion Theory thread, Iran’s population is extremely diverse. No researcher, be it Spencer Wells or anyone else, has done the country’s ethnic groups justice with their vague references to “South” and “North” Iran. Nobody’s specified if they went to Arab Iranians, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Turkmen, Lurs, Bakhtiaris, Balochis or Afghan-Iranians for their samples.

2) All the samples taken were in large cities. Cities, by definition, are large, bustling, heavily-populated regions that are economic hot-zones; for that very reason, foreigners from far and wide settle in them. An excellent modern example of that? England. From memory, I believe 70-80% of England’s immigrant population currently reside in the large cities, such as London, Liverpool, Birmingham… If you want a better idea of how the culture and people are in a nation, go out into the country. Not one study I’ve seen so far has been to the villages of Iran; all I ever see are the very places the Mongols, Arabs, Turks and other foreign powers swept in and made into their capitals, thus attracting more of their folk into Iranian cities. Tehran, Esfahan, Yazd, Shiraz… The genetic diversity within those cities is much larger than further out.

What we have on Iran’s just a rough guide to the country’s Y-DNA profile. From what the big cities have told us, we have more G, R1b and N to the north, and R1a, J1, R2 to the south, with a big chunk of J2 everywhere. I honestly think it’s a little bit prudent to try and build a case for R1a’s journey via Iran or the Caucasus for that very reason. Although there’s nothing wrong and everything right with creating a set of hypotheses, just, be careful with the murky realm that is modern-day Iran… (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I too think Iran is very diverse, and is on the modern crossroad, and more genetic studies there will help.

On the other hand, to put things into perspective, for diversity especially, please consider the example of the little state of Bihar in India – (undivided) Bihar, has a population of about 120 million in an area of 66,000 sq miles, ie, about twice the population of Iran in one-tenth the area.
In that tiny area four major linguistic groups are present – IE, Dravidian, Austric, Tibeto-Burman, and with diversity comes the diversity in haplogroups.

This little area was in ancient times a place from where mighty Magadhan empires – as well as philosophies – Atharvan, Bauddha, Jina, originated.

Not only is the population is high today, but it was high in ancient times. Even if we put a factor of exaggeration, the ancient population of its metropolis Rajagaha and its surrounding areas had a population of millions in the Buddha period. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/r/raajagaha.htm

Similarly, a few centuries later, post-Alexander Greek accounts say the following about the Ganges Kingdoms which give an indication of their size, where even an island in the Ganges is said to be heavily populated:

“The people who live in the furthest-off part are the Gangarides, whose king possesses 1,000 horse, 700 elephants, and 60,000 foot in apparatus of war. In the Ganges there is an island extremely populous, occupied by a very powerful nation whose king keeps under arms 50,000 foot and 4,000 horse. In fact no one invested with kingly power ever keeps on foot a military force without a very great number of elephants and foot and cavalry. Next come the Andarae, a still more powerful race … army of 100,000 infantry, 2,000 cavalry, and 1,000 elephants. The royal city of the Calingae is called Parthalis. Over their king 60,000 foot-soldiers, 1,000 horsemen, 700 elephants…
But the Prasii surpass in power and glory every other people, not only in this quarter, but one may say in all India, their capital Palibothra, a very large and wealthy city…Their king has in his pay a standing army of 600,000 foot-soldiers, 30,000 cavalry, and 9,000 elephants: whence may be formed some conjecture as to the vastness of his resources.”

Other locations even though not as densely populated were heavily populated too. For comparison purposes, in the empire of Darius, just one his tributary provinces in south asia (he had four Bactria, Gandhara, Shatagydia, & Sindh) – Sindh provided one third of the revenue of the total empire. Sindh was the the most populous nation in the world known to Herodotus who did not know the parts of India east of the great desert – “Eastward of India (or Sindh) lies a desert of sand.”

As far as antiquity is concerned, the vedic peoples may have originated there too – between the Sarayu and the Sadanira (both mean always flowing) rivers.
As you see above, the Alexandran Greeks call them Prasii – which mean both east and ancient. The word for ancestor is Purava-ja – or born in Purva – again east as well as elucidated in this note:

“And because in the earliest of times this quarter was overspread … it is for this that it is called Purva. The gods, desirous of prosperity, performed all their religious ceremonies here. It was here that the divine Creator of the universe first sang the Vedas.
It was here that the Homa-fires, first drank articles of cognate origin (milk, butter, ghee). It was here that Varuna first repaired to the nether regions, and attained to all his prosperity. It was here, O bull among the twice born, that the birth, growth and death of the ancient Vasishtha took place.”

The monarch Asoka – mentioned in the title of this thread, was a Magadhan monarch – and I wanted to make clear that from mythical times of the Vratyas, Vasisthas & Atharvans, and Bhrguangirasas; to the Buddhas, the Jinas, the Uggas/Sakiyas/Licchavis; to the Nandas, the Mauryas and the Gupta/Gaudas, this region was a significant one.

As I have mentioned in another post on Vajjians and Mahasanghikas, that the Bactrians, Gandharans, trans-himalayans colonies on the western portions of the upper and lower silk routes, were migrants from the Magadhan region. Though they are precursors of the vedic peoples, the settled vedic peoples developed a dislike for them, and even referred to them as anarya.

[Please note that I am not advocating any out of India position here, since I think, that initially the Vratya as well as the Vedic peoples came from the trans-himalayan regions and entered south asia along river valleys – these antecedent river valleys have been stable since pre-human times and even pre-himalayan times].

If we need to study and understand the ancient origins of peoples, we need to study the region where most of them lived, and reports have suggested that region is southern asia – “on their way from Africa to populate the rest of the world … over half the population lived in Southern Asia between 50,000 and 25,000 years ago”
see, Human adolescence spent in South Asia
http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/news/a…le_movement.cfm

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post Oct 29 2008, 08:28 AM

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QUOTE (DMXX @ Oct 28 2008, 08:10 PM) *
I would love to see the linkage between Scandinavia and Buddhism broadened, but, I think it’s worth stressing a bit of caution when it comes to Middle Eastern samples.

India, from what I can see, has recieved a generous serving of attention from genealogists and archaeologists alike. When it comes to Iran, though, things aren’t quite that extensively researched, to be honest. Since the Islamic Revolution in 1979, all the archeology and historical work on ancient Iranian sites slowed down dramatically; especially with the barring of foreign Iranologists from Europe and North America.

What I’m saying is, most of what we know about Iran’s pre-Persian history is extremely limited. Sure, we have the Elamites in the south and various Caucasian groups occupying the northern region, along the Caspian sea, but, that’s nothing spectacular.

The data we have on Iran’s Y-DNA Hgs isn’t very accurate. I make that assertion based on two clear observations:

1) Like I stated before in the Aryan Invasion Theory thread, Iran’s population is extremely diverse. No researcher, be it Spencer Wells or anyone else, has done the country’s ethnic groups justice with their vague references to “South” and “North” Iran. Nobody’s specified if they went to Arab Iranians, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Turkmen, Lurs, Bakhtiaris, Balochis or Afghan-Iranians for their samples.

2) All the samples taken were in large cities. Cities, by definition, are large, bustling, heavily-populated regions that are economic hot-zones; for that very reason, foreigners from far and wide settle in them. An excellent modern example of that? England. From memory, I believe 70-80% of England’s immigrant population currently reside in the large cities, such as London, Liverpool, Birmingham… If you want a better idea of how the culture and people are in a nation, go out into the country. Not one study I’ve seen so far has been to the villages of Iran; all I ever see are the very places the Mongols, Arabs, Turks and other foreign powers swept in and made into their capitals, thus attracting more of their folk into Iranian cities. Tehran, Esfahan, Yazd, Shiraz… The genetic diversity within those cities is much larger than further out.

What we have on Iran’s just a rough guide to the country’s Y-DNA profile. From what the big cities have told us, we have more G, R1b and N to the north, and R1a, J1, R2 to the south, with a big chunk of J2 everywhere. I honestly think it’s a little bit prudent to try and build a case for R1a’s journey via Iran or the Caucasus for that very reason. Although there’s nothing wrong and everything right with creating a set of hypotheses, just, be careful with the murky realm that is modern-day Iran… (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Back on topic, though… One thing that’s struck my mind, is the tendency for people (me included) to associate a different set of physical features between two groups, as just that; two different groups, with different origins, interacting with each other.
While the notion of a dark-haired, slightly darker-skinned people coming into Scandinavia is plausible… Has anyone considered the possibility of those very people being from Scandinavia itself? Blonde/fair hair, from the maps I’ve seen, have diffused relatively evenly out from a central point in modern-day Finland/Sweden:

Bear in mind I said “relatively evenly” there. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) – As for the much lower frequency of blonde hair in the far North-East of Scandinavia… I’m curious over which ethnic group(s) currently live there? Am I right in assuming they’re Mongoloid folk who moved there in more recent times?
My point is, the “darker people coming into Scandinavia” might’ve just been the autosomal remnants, if you will, of the pre-Blonde expansion, who somehow adopted the customs and culture of people further down South-East. I say “expansion” in the metaphorical term, not literally. Anyway, it could be just as plausible; the only thing that would make me sure of any of the theories, was testing the autosomal DNA of any remains from around the fringes of Scandinavia. Then again, so would everyone else. (IMG:http://dna-forums.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

DMXX, thanks for the comment. Hopefully some resourceful people can dig deeper into these topics. India, China, Central Asia and Iran are very exciting to learn more about, for a novice this is complex learning. Genes are only parts of the informational puzzle e.g. language, history, archaeology, and mythology etc. must be considered.

My comments on Persia will have to wait, however I understand your concerns.

About the map you added:
It is too simplifying to divide people into categories as for instance the map with hair color. Remembering how diverse hair, skin and eye colour etc. is only in my closest family. We have it all. Some have tried to average features as eye, skin, hair, nose form and stature etc. on a group levels and it resulted in crude simplifications and racism. Eugenics overlooked variations within groups. There are good reasons why such approaches are called “quasi-sciences” and cannot be considered more than that.

With haplogroups you can discuss origin, without discussing physical features or race, haplogroups reflects only a small fraction of our genes.

Why are there ignorance of facts and for some parts of our history, circular explanations and a general lack of curiosity and discussions? Why don’t keep an open mind, instead of protecting and continuing old prejudices?

See next posting….

:)Peace

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